GTHA Transit Fare Integration

[nfitz]

It's going to be a done deal by mid-2017 - not that long a time when the planning horizon is 10, 15, 30 years from now.

Presto will be implemented by mid-2017 - heck by January 2017 if they meet their current schedule.

But to implement POP system wide (buses and subways), they'd have to do a lot more, that there are no plans for. And to do fare by distance, they need to replace a lot of stations gates and exits, which is also not planned; there's some baby steps towards that, but nothing on the order that would be needed for full implementation.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

But to implement POP system wide (buses and subways), they'd have to do a lot more, that there are no plans for. And to do fare by distance, they need to replace a lot of stations gates and exits, which is also not planned; there's some baby steps towards that, but nothing on the order that would be needed for full implementation.

It's not rocket science considering the experiences elsewhere - all you need is a tapping out functionality and new gates. Keeping in mind that decision for full Presto implementation wasn't even in the works until what, this summer, implementing a tap out function is a more a matter of political will than anything.

As to buses (and perhaps streetcars), would they even bother going with zones? Or just flat fare instead?

AoD

 

[nfitz]

It's not rocket science considering the experiences elsewhere - all you need is a tapping out functionality and new gates. Keeping in mind that decision for full Presto implementation wasn't even in the works until what, this summer, implementing a tap out function is a more a matter of political will than anything.

Which large city has successfully implemented fare-by-distance on buses and tap-outs?

London doesn't - you only tap-in.

Vancouver's implementation has been such a disaster, they've been considering getting rid of fare-by-distance to get the Smartcard working properly (though I haven't heard much recently).

YRT is doing zones with Presto - but you have to talk to the driver before you tap-on, and then he adjusts the machine to charge you the right fare. I'm not sure that's going to work well in a POP world.

As for the subway stations, the number of gates you need to do tap-out is significantly more than tapping in. This is because you have the entire train arriving at once, rather than just people arriving randomly. You also need to add faregates on the bus platforms, so people can tap into the station after getting off the bus. That would require a lot of building modifications just to find the space to put the farelines in - let alone the large amount of equipment.

 

[aquateam]

Let's hope GO doesn't have a say in a distance based system or Toronto is about to get screwed. GO is supposedly distance based but is completely warped to benefit the 905 and discourage Torontonians from taking it. Seriously, Union to the EX is $5.30 but if you are going all the way to Burlington it's $10.60.................that's about quadruple the price on a km travelled basis.

But regardless, fare by distance would be an improvement over flat fares by that measure, since the cost to travel 20 kilometers by flat fare is the same cost as traveling 2 kilometers.

There are certain fixed costs with running a transit system that don't just scale up with distance, so it is reasonable that there'd be a higher cost per kilometer for shorter trips. But GO's price structure is definitely meant to discourage short distance travel.

I also don't understand how they would do distance based but exclude buses? Most travel in the GTA is still done by the buses. In the GTHA buses are still the backbone of the system. I also think basing it on the type of travel method is also stupid. If you are going from A to B who cares if you take an regular/articulated/express/double decker/local/GO bus or streetcar/LRT/RT/subway/commuter rail? The technology shouldn't matter if it is truly a distanced based system but then again Metrolinx has allowed GO's supposed distance based system to continue so fairness doesn't seem to be at the top of their agenda.

I think the reason they go with technology differences is 1) it's an easy distinction for people to make 2) people are willing to pay a premium for faster travel and 3) certain technologies lead themselves better to fare-by-distance, and it isn't feasible to implement it on all modes so they've chosen just the modes where it does work.

It's not rocket science considering the experiences elsewhere - all you need is a tapping out functionality and new gates. Keeping in mind that decision for full Presto implementation wasn't even in the works until what, this summer, implementing a tap out function is a more a matter of political will than anything.

As to buses (and perhaps streetcars), would they even bother going with zones? Or just flat fare instead?

AoD

Vancouver used to have a zone system for buses, I think they're phasing that out. It would most likely be flat fare.

 

[Napoleon]

It's not rocket science considering the experiences elsewhere - all you need is a tapping out functionality and new gates. Keeping in mind that decision for full Presto implementation wasn't even in the works until what, this summer, implementing a tap out function is a more a matter of political will than anything.

As to buses (and perhaps streetcars), would they even bother going with zones? Or just flat fare instead?

You're right it's a matter of political will, but also money. New gates for every subway station in the TTC will not be cheap. The other truth is that one can travel quite a distance by streetcar and bus. It doesn't make sense to implement fare-by-distance on the subway but not on the streetcar.

Amsterdam has very effectively figured out fare by distance. You tap on/off every time you board a transit vehicle. There's a base fare plus a per kilometer fare. It was pretty neat looking at my fare history online. I could see the additional fare collected after a transfer. For visitors there's also an option to buy a one-time flat fare, but it's quite a bit more expensive than the alternative.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Which large city has successfully implemented fare-by-distance on buses and tap-outs

London doesn't - you only tap-in.

Did you miss this part of my post?
As to buses (and perhaps streetcars), would they even bother going with zones? Or just flat fare instead?

As for the subway stations, the number of gates you need to do tap-out is significantly more than tapping in. This is because you have the entire train arriving at once, rather than just people arriving randomly. You also need to add faregates on the bus platforms, so people can tap into the station after getting off the bus. That would require a lot of building modifications just to find the space to put the farelines in - let alone the large amount of equipment.

The number of gates argument is a little exaggerated - besides, shouldn't the goal be converting ALL gates? And regarding tap off for buses - you can easily have stand up terminals in the mezzaine area. It's work, but it's not rocket science.

You're right it's a matter of political will, but also money. New gates for every subway station in the TTC will not be cheap. The other truth is that one can travel quite a distance by streetcar and bus. It doesn't make sense to implement fare-by-distance on the subway but not on the streetcar.

Amsterdam has very effectively figured out fare by distance. You tap on/off every time you board a transit vehicle. There's a base fare plus a per kilometer fare. It was pretty neat looking at my fare history online. I could see the additional fare collected after a transfer. For visitors there's also an option to buy a one-time flat fare, but it's quite a bit more expensive than the alternative.

Of course it is a cost issue, but it's not an insurmountable one - note the project report for Presto conversion:

https://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commis...5/July_29/Reports/PA-Faregates_for_PRESTO.pdf

In June 2015, TTC staff informed the Board of the plan to replace all existing turnstiles and fareline equipment with new faregates (approximately 1,100 new faregates in total). The overall capital cost for the supply, installation and maintenance of 1,100 new
faregates is estimated to be $49 million. As noted above, funding sources for the initial
procurement ($17.1million) have been identified and the remainder of the total cost will
be submitted as part of the 2016-2025 Capital Budget and Plan. Subject to Council
approval of the TTC’s 2016-2025 Capital Budget and Plan in February 2016, TTC will
seek Board approval to award the supply, installation and maintenance of the remaining
new faregates.

In essence, we are basically replacing all the existing equipment (due to age, mentioned elsewhere in the report).

As to streetcars - if the zones are large enough, you wouldn't have to worry too much about cross zone travels - and frankly if one is masochistic enough to ride them through zones, they deserve to get a discount.

The tap off/distance charge system in Amsterdam is interesting - I wonder how well it works under crowd conditions re: egress time though.

AoD

 

[Adjei]

How fares work in some cities around the world and in Canada:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/fareintegration/20150302_Approach_to_Fares_EN.pdf

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

How fares work in some cities around the world and in Canada:

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/fareintegration/20150302_Approach_to_Fares_EN.pdf

Oh gawd, can you imagine implementing the Hamburg Ring system here and the amount of confusion it will create? :eek!

AoD

 

[nfitz]

Did you miss this part of my post?
As to buses (and perhaps streetcars), would they even bother going with zones? Or just flat fare instead?

I did. GO Trains area already fare-by-distance. If this is just a discussion about TTC subway, then it's not a GTHA integration discussion.

The number of gates argument is a little exaggerated - besides, shouldn't the goal be converting ALL gates? And regarding tap off for buses - you can easily have stand up terminals in the mezzaine area. It's work, but it's not rocket science.

Many gates are exit-only. There's no plans to replace these currently. At busy stations they already just open the gates when trains arrive - this can't happen with fare-by-distance because you then get a penalty fare. You need much wider fare lines.

Of course it is a cost issue, but it's not an insurmountable one - note the project report for Presto conversion:

https://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commis...5/July_29/Reports/PA-Faregates_for_PRESTO.pdf

In essence, we are basically replacing all the existing equipment (due to age, mentioned elsewhere in the report).

There's a huge difference between replacing the current equipment, and leaving in a relatively cheap option for tap-out, and actually going out and upgrading the system to deal with all the crowding issues.

What about all the extra fare lines you need at bus terminals to capture everyone coming off the buses? or to capture everyone coming out of the subway and to the buses?

You'd have to make major modifications in about 40 or so stations. I'd expect you'd be pushing half-a-billion just for the station modifications, let alone the actual equipment. Perhaps less of an issue at the newer, bigger stations, but many of the Line 1 and Line 2 stations are so old, with not a lot more space.

 

[rbt]

As for the subway stations, the number of gates you need to do tap-out is significantly more than tapping in. This is because you have the entire train arriving at once, rather than just people arriving randomly. You also need to add faregates on the bus platforms, so people can tap into the station after getting off the bus. That would require a lot of building modifications just to find the space to put the farelines in - let alone the large amount of equipment.

Some stations like King or Dundas already struggle to get people out of the station faster than they arrive. Add in time to extract the card and it'll be that much more backlogged at the exits.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Some stations like King or Dundas already struggle to get people out of the station faster than they arrive. Add in time to extract the card and it'll be that much more backlogged at the exits.

On the other hand, it may create an opportunity to speed it up by distributing ingress and egress gates "tidally".

AoD

 

[nfitz]

On the other hand, it may create an opportunity to speed it up by "tidal" distributing ingress and egress gates.

Where? That concourse is already overloaded with people - and that's with the gates wide open, letting people through both ways. There's just not much space in many of these stations.

Modifications can be done, but it's going to cost money at some of these stations.

Some would be easy - there's plenty of room for fareline at Main in the mezzanine level - but very few of the older stations have the kind of layout where that's possible.

Main has one, because that was the zone boundary between Zone 1 and Zone 2, so everyone (like Jane) had to go through the barriers.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Where? That concourse is already overloaded with people - and that's with the gates wide open, letting people through both ways. There's just not much space in many of these stations.

Modifications can be done, but it's going to cost money at some of these stations.

Some would be easy - there's plenty of room for fareline at Main in the mezzanine level - but very few of the older stations have the kind of layout where that's possible.

Just using the case of Dundas, knock out at least one of the two existing ticket booths; that gives you space for at least two gates (4 if you do both). Second, there is no need for a swing gate , which provides another 2. Third, the new gates will have much better reader positioning than the existing design, which should also maximize throughput. The switch to the new gate system will also allow you to assign gates as ingress or egress, even at different times of the day depending on passenger patterns. You can also have predetermined trips allowing you to bypass the tap off step.

Does it cost money? Sure, but let's not forget this degree of intervention is hardly necessary for all but the busiest stations, and frankly should be done a decade ago, if they hadn't stick with tokens and tickets.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

That's isn't even starting to come near to enough capacity. I think you'd have to double if not triple the current line there.

Sure, there's probably only a dozen or so stations like this. But what about all the stations like Coxwell or Woodbine where you will have to install fare lines to get to the buses? Where would you put that at Woodbine for example?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That's isn't even starting to come near to enough capacity. I think you'd have to double if not triple the current line there.

You've got to be kidding me. I use one of these busy stations on a daily basis and the main delay is caused by the turnstyle (slow), people having to route themselves through the very limited number of turnstyles and the stupid way they allow both in and egress through the same turnstyles (you go, you go first). Waiting for people to take out their Presto card is almost a non-issue relative to these, and certainly nothing compared to people fishing for tokens, trying to find the tiny slot, it jamming, trying to recover rejected token, etc. Or lining up for the ticket booth and play twenty questions with the attendant.

Sure, there's probably only a dozen or so stations like this. But what about all the stations like Coxwell or Woodbine where you will have to install fare lines to get to the buses? Where would you put that at Woodbine for example?

The buses will need to be Presto equipped in any case, and really it isn't that much trouble to install standup Presto terminals at entrance/exits (and additional spaces like the soon to be obsolete transfer printers).

AoD