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Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

I guess the TTC would pull the "Hey! Why are you working on their trains?? Finish ours!!" card. Which would be the ultimate jerk move to Waterloo, where there are no trains to fall back on since it's a new system. The TTC already has streetcars do them being a little late is no big deal.
 
Duck said:
I guess the TTC would pull the "Hey! Why are you working on their trains?? Finish ours!!" card. Which would be the ultimate jerk move to Waterloo, where there are no trains to fall back on since it's a new system. The TTC already has streetcars do them being a little late is no big deal.
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It's the reverse surely. Being a new system, Waterloo has already got existing infrastructure that can be used. Toronto streetcar shortage has reached the point where there's now 31 replacement buses in service on King and Queen in rush-hour, just to provide existing services - meanwhile they are being forced to retire existing cars faster than new cars are arriving, as they are well past when they were ever meant to still be functioning.

Though 14 vehicles is pretty insignificant compared to what BBD is dealing with - I'm not sure it will come to that.
 
I don't think either city/transit agency looking out for their own interests is a jerk move. They are paying customers and expect their product to be delivered on time. If it can't be delivered on time, its not Toronto's fault, or KW's fault. It's Bombardier's fault.

You don't go blaming all the people who bought the latest widget for it being sold out. You blame the manufacturer of widgets for not being able to keep up with demand.
 
I think you ask the folks who planned ION whether buddying up with Metrolinx for vehicles looks like such a hot idea now. I wonder what answer would come back as to the factors which drove that decision.
 
dowlingm said:
I think you ask the folks who planned ION whether buddying up with Metrolinx for vehicles looks like such a hot idea now. I wonder what answer would come back as to the factors which drove that decision.
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Depends on what ION will be able to get from Bombardier in return for the delays. With Phase II in the planning stages, perhaps the cost of additional vehicles may no longer end up in their hands. If they can make do with existing buses in the meantime, the delay may not be as much of a burden for KW as it is for Toronto.
 
dowlingm said:
I wonder what answer would come back as to the factors which drove that decision.
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Almost certainly money. TTC got a good deal on their LRVs and placed their order years earlier before inflation kicked in or Bombardier realized their new North American supply chain is a bit more expensive than expected.

The price difference may have been in the millions for those 14 LRVs, and they still would have gotten a Bombardier vehicle.

The Ottawa contract was won due to the construction cost, not the vehicle price.
 
I wonder who ION's contract is with for the vehicles though, since they took Metrolinx options. If it's with Metrolinx, what penalty clause is included, inclusive of a cap provision like in the TTC's one with Bombardier?
 
rbt said:
Almost certainly money. TTC got a good deal on their LRVs and placed their order years earlier before inflation kicked in or Bombardier realized their new North American supply chain is a bit more expensive than expected.

The price difference may have been in the millions for those 14 LRVs, and they still would have gotten a Bombardier vehicle.

The Ottawa contract was won due to the construction cost, not the vehicle price.
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Ottawa, like Edmonton, contracted with a design-build consortium who included specific vehicles in their bid. That couldn't have happened in Waterloo as ION negotiated with Metrolinx for theirs, right?

Funny how it worked out that Toronto's cars got made in Thunder Bay, mind you, and while an Ottawa-area Premier was in government it was decided that Confederation Line cars would be built locally. Coincidence, I'm sure.
 
dowlingm said:
That couldn't have happened in Waterloo as ION negotiated with Metrolinx for theirs, right?
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Correct. Since ION negotiated with Metrolinx that could not have happened as Metrolinx would not be a part of a construction consortium for building ION. That seems fairly obvious doesn't it?

If Waterloo wanted vehicles to be part of the Design+Build+Operate+Maintain contract, they should have included them as part of that package and evaluated it that way. The choice was entirely up to the city.

Metrolinx offered a cost savings which they, probably smartly, took by splitting vehicles out of the package.
 
dowlingm said:
Funny how it worked out that Toronto's cars got made in Thunder Bay, mind you, and while an Ottawa-area Premier was in government it was decided that Confederation Line cars would be built locally. Coincidence, I'm sure.
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Well, for one the Ottawa cars are not built locally - just assembled there. They'll be built at the Alstom facility in Hornell, NY.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
How far do the cars get built in Hornell and what is left to do in Ottawa?
 
dowlingm said:
I think you ask the folks who planned ION whether buddying up with Metrolinx for vehicles looks like such a hot idea now. I wonder what answer would come back as to the factors which drove that decision.
Click to expand...

They were able to get in on a reasonable price for a reasonable product designed to meet local conditions. It's likely that Metrolinx was able to get a better deal as part of a large contract than Waterloo Region would have been able to get by itself or as part of a bid. This meant that they could avoid a lot of extra complexity in putting together the RFP for the DBFOM procurement, and save time in the bidding process itself.
 
Admiral Beez said:
Bombardier is making our streetcars and the Eglinton crosstown trams. I assume this is some local content rule by the province, but then why was the UPE built in Japan?
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UPX was assembled and tested in Idaho. That balanced the foreign manufacturing, but I believe it was American local content requirements that drove that, not ours.
 
Duck said:
How far do the cars get built in Hornell and what is left to do in Ottawa?
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To be honest, I'm not sure yet. It sounds like all that will be done in Ottawa is to install the trucks under the modules and then connect them all together, but I'm not sure of that yet.

DonValleyRainbow said:
UPX was assembled and tested in Idaho. That balanced the foreign manufacturing, but I believe it was American local content requirements that drove that, not ours.
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Not Idaho - Rochelle, Illinois.

And yes, it was the "Buy American" rules that provided the driver for the amount of work done and choice of components used.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
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