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Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

This gets me every time. Why did we have to go for low floor LRTs if we did not have any plans to use the legacy streetcar system? Look at how narrow the passageway is between the seats which has to do with the fact that the trucks are positioned underneath. The movement of passengers inside the vehicle will be terrible and the conditions will be cramped. Frankly, the section above the trucks shown in that picture is about as claustrophobic as the rear of an Orion VII bus. Had we gone for a high floor LRV like you see in Edmonton and Calgary - and along the urban, narrow streets of San Francisco - we would not have this problem.

The fact that they are 100% low floor, rather than 70% low floor that most low-floor LRVs I've rode are, bothers me, especially for the standard gauge TC fleet. It is not as if you'd be able to get a wheelchair through that space, and positioning a stroller or cart in the truck sections will create an instant blockade. Most new US LRT systems use the 70% low-floor models (such as Phoenix, Minneapolis, Salt Lake City) and at least you can use the space above the trucks better than you can. I can see why low platforms would make sense though for median light rail, so I get that part (though high-floor LRVs would have the best capacity).

As bad as the back of the Orion VIIs are, they still beat the 100% low-floor Orion VIs, which the TTC completely scrapped ahead of their lifespans. We're ending up using the equivalent of Orion VIs for our LRT network!
 
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The movement of passengers inside the vehicle will be terrible and the conditions will be cramped.
How so? If things are that busy, there will be no reason to walk between that narrow section, as you can access the door without passing that narrow section. This is no different than the similar narrow section on the Montreal Metro cars ... it doesn't cause a problem, because if it's that crowded, there isn't the movement through the narrow section. If there's space to move, people just don't stand in the narrow section.

It's a far better arrangement than the back of the existing ALRV cars, where you always have to push through the narrow section to get to a door.

Had we gone for a high floor LRV like you see in Edmonton and Calgary - and along the urban, narrow streets of San Francisco - we would not have this problem.
We have high flow LRVs now, and yet have much longer narrow sections, consisting of 4 rows of seats - instead of just the simple 1 set of back-to-back seats we see here.
 
How so? If things are that busy, there will be no reason to walk between that narrow section, as you can access the door without passing that narrow section. This is no different than the similar narrow section on the Montreal Metro cars ... it doesn't cause a problem, because if it's that crowded, there isn't the movement through the narrow section. If there's space to move, people just don't stand in the narrow section.

Well the whole point is that the vestibule (or the open space in front of the doors) eventually get congested and there is a need for crush load passengers to access the other parts of the car. On a high floor LRV or our current subway, the layout affords this.

If the car is as narrow as an LRV, a high floor car like the Mk II Skytrain cars in Vancouver or the new Montreal metro cars (which are also in the 2.4-2.65m width range) just have 2 + 1 seating and provide a much bigger corridor space for standees to spread around.

Compare:

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with

450px-Skytrain_Mark_II_2009_inside.jpg

MPM10_2.jpg


Of course, we can't do that with 100% low floor LRVs because the trucks have to be symmetrical, and hence you have to have 2 + 2 seating with a narrow corridor.

We have high flow LRVs now, and yet have much longer narrow sections, consisting of 4 rows of seats - instead of just the simple 1 set of back-to-back seats we see here.

On the CLRVs where they converted the rear to 2 + 1 seating, movement in the back is much less of a problem.

I'm not sure about the efficiency of back-to-back seating (where 4 seats face each other). Anecdotally, they are always the last seats to fill up in cities where buses (usually Novas) have them; people often prefer to stand than to squeeze past the kneecaps of 3 people.
 
Well the whole point is that the vestibule (or the open space in front of the doors) eventually get congested and there is a need for crush load passengers to access the other parts of the car.
If the one "vestibule" is crush loaded, then likely the two adjacent ones - which also have doors, will also be crush loaded. If they are not, you simply walk between the sections - as if the vestibule is not fill, people won't tend to gravitate to stand in the narrow sections.

On a high floor LRV or our current subway, the layout affords this.
Our current high floor LRV cars have similar narrow sections, which are worse, as you do have to walk through them to egress the vehicle.

If the car is as narrow as an LRV, a high floor car like the Mk II Skytrain cars in Vancouver or the new Montreal metro cars (which are also in the 2.4-2.65m width range) just have 2 + 1 seating and provide a much bigger corridor space for standees to spread around.
All the subway cars used since the 1960s in Montreal s had 2+2 seating. Walking between sections has never been a problem. The new cars don't have 2+1 seating because of walking through sections. But so they can cram more people onto the subway car. More standing, less sitting.

Of course, we can't do that with 100% low floor LRVs because the trucks have to be symmetrical, and hence you have to have 2 + 2 seating with a narrow corridor.
If I recall correctly, the low-floor Flexity vehicles that Bombardier was running on the Olympic line in 2010 had 2+1 seating. I don't think 2+2 is a requirement.

On the CLRVs where they converted the rear to 2 + 1 seating, movement in the back is much less of a problem.
It is. But on these cars, there is a lot of reason to move through the long distance from back doors to the rear of the car. This won't be as problematic with the new LRVs, as there will be little reason to move through the car, unless everyone tries to all file in in the front door, or the rear door.

I'm not sure about the efficiency of back-to-back seating (where 4 seats face each other). Anecdotally, they are always the last seats to fill up in cities where buses (usually Novas) have them; people often prefer to stand than to squeeze past the kneecaps of 3 people.
Yes, that might get interesting. But from the pictures, the spacing doesn't seem particularly tight. Now, on crammed streetcars (imagine the ones leaving the Ex after an event) will people be trying to stand between the knees of the sitting people?

I'm not sure these pictures illustrate the seating well. It actually appears tighter than the legacy LRV vehicles, which are actually narrower. This is from the mock-up of the new TTC legacy vehicle - it's a very similar anger to the new picture of the Metrolinx LRV, which I'll put below
Front%20facing%20Rear.jpg
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In my mind, the most interesting thing in this new mock-up, is that it's in Metrolinx green, instead of TTC red.
 
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The problem with low floor buses is the amount of space the wheels take up because they are so large, exacerbated by the fact that there are only two sets of doors for passengers to choose from. Wheel wells and lack of doors aren't a problem with LRVs because the wheels are smaller and there are multiple sets of doors. 100% low floor for LRVs is not a big deal at all.
 
I guess we'll have to wait and see once these new 100% low-floor LRVs are in service to judge. In theory it sounds like a good idea just to make them 100%, but time will tell.
 
I see the merit of having 100% low-floor LRVs for the downtown streetcar network, given people board in the middle of the road. It would also be impossible to retrofit all of the 1000+ streetcar stops to support level-boarding to a high-floor LRV.

But given the Transit City LRV cars are completely separate contract and vehicle from the downtown system and will only serve select rapid transit stops on dedicated corridors, why havn't they seriously considered using high-floor vehicles with high-floor platforms w/ streetramps for these lines? It will still be "100% low-floor" in the sense that it will still be level-access with the vehicle. How much more $ do you guys think it costs to pour concrete on a platform to elevate it at all Transit City stops?

Not only is it better for comfort, it's a pre-emptive money saver in the event of future ridership increases. No need to increase service or extend platform lengths in the event of future ridership crushes.
 
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I see the merit of having 100% low-floor LRVs for the downtown streetcar network, given people board in the middle of the road. It would also be impossible to retrofit all of the 1000+ streetcar stops to support level-boarding to a high-floor LRV.

But given the Transit City LRV cars are completely separate contract and vehicle from the downtown system and will only serve select rapid transit stops on dedicated corridors, why havn't they seriously considered using high-floor vehicles with high-floor platforms w/ streetramps for these lines? It will still be "100% low-floor" in the sense that it will still be level-access with the vehicle. How much more $ do you guys think it costs to pour concrete on a platform to elevate it at all Transit City stops?

Not only is it better for comfort, it's a pre-emptive money saver in the event of future ridership increases. No need to increase service or extend platform lengths in the event of future ridership crushes.

I know this might sound stupid but if they built a platform as you are suggesting in the winter time they would be obligated to make sure all the stairs were cleaned and salted. There might be a liability issue if the stairs aren't clear ed and something happens. The cost of maintenance on this type of line would be more then all low floor. Other then the advantage of moving more people faster lrt has benefits of using less drivers using electricity instead of gas and in theory having cheaper maintenance than subways. Pretty sure the cost benefit is a big deal to the ttc.
 
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I remember walking through the Legacy LRV mock-up, and remember that space between the seats being wider then it looked. It really wasn't that bad, especially considering the vast amount of open space between the sets of bogies. Considering all-door boarding, and the overall increase of space in the vehicle, I think this isn't as big a deal as some think.
 
I remember walking through the Legacy LRV mock-up, and remember that space between the seats being wider then it looked. It really wasn't that bad, especially considering the vast amount of open space between the sets of bogies. Considering all-door boarding, and the overall increase of space in the vehicle, I think this isn't as big a deal as some think.

Again, hard to tell from all the photos, but the TC LRVs are supposed to be 11 cm wider than the replacement legacy streetcars, and I would assume that added width would translate to a wider aisle.
 
Again, hard to tell from all the photos, but the TC LRVs are supposed to be 11 cm wider than the replacement legacy streetcars, and I would assume that added width would translate to a wider aisle.
I'd agree ... though it actually looks narrow from the pictures; hence my comment I don't think that the pictures give a good perspective.
 
If I recall correctly, the low-floor Flexity vehicles that Bombardier was running on the Olympic line in 2010 had 2+1 seating. I don't think 2+2 is a requirement.

They actually have inward facing bench seating on one side and single seats on the other side,(in the truck sections), so the seating arrangement is not as restrictive as some seem to be proclaiming.
 
If I recall correctly, the low-floor Flexity vehicles that Bombardier was running on the Olympic line in 2010 had 2+1 seating. I don't think 2+2 is a requirement.
They actually have inward facing bench seating on one side and single seats on the other side,(in the truck sections), so the seating arrangement is not as restrictive as some seem to be proclaiming.

No. It was 2+1. See these photos:

4277677808_3ebaeecb86_m.jpg

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From http://www.miss604.com/2010/01/olympic-line-free-public-streetcar.html
 

Actually, those are Bombardier Flexity Outlook trams from Belgium, when they were on loan to Vancouver during the Olympics. They are 2.3 m wide, narrower than both the old and new Toronto streetcar (2.54m), and much, much narrower than the Transit City Bombardier Freedom light rail vehicles (2.65m). See this link for the specs for the Outlook, and this link for the Freedom.
 
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