TheTigerMaster
Superstar
BRT isn't cheaper than LRT at all. In fact, on Finch the BRT would actually be more expensive to operate.
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Finch West Line 6 LRT
- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
BRT isn't cheaper than LRT at all. In fact, on Finch the BRT would actually be more expensive to operate.
JayBeeGooner
Active Member
Capital costs for BRT will always be cheaper than LRT. BRT doesn't require substations, OCS, tracks, etc. Depending on the level of service provided, LRT can be cheaper to operate, but if you provide crappy service like what's provided in YRT, BRT will be cheaper to operate.
So it depends on the agency.
muller877
Senior Member
It is a question of the expected life of the product.
e.g.
BRT costs $250M and costs $100M/yr to run (including maintenence, new vehicles every 12 years, etc)
LRT costs $1B and costs $50M/yr to run (including maintenance, new vehicles every 20 years, etc)
So over a 10 year period BRT costs $1.25B and LRT costs $1.5B. BRT wins
Over a 20 year period BRT costs $2.25B and LRT costs $2B. LRT wins
(and we have to assume some end...a switch to higher form of transit or technological changes)
Run the real numbers...then you need to layer on the socio-economical differences between the 2. And then its a judgement call if one wins on the numbers and the other one wins on the softer benefits.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Here's a recent blogpost about LRT vs BRT costs:
http://urbankchoze.blogspot.nl/2014/07/brt-and-lrt-transit-war.html?m=1
Based on his assumptions, the economics tip in favour of LRT at only 50,000 riders a day.
http://urbankchoze.blogspot.nl/2014/07/brt-and-lrt-transit-war.html?m=1
Based on his assumptions, the economics tip in favour of LRT at only 50,000 riders a day.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Except that light rail vehicles last in the same time frame as streetcars and subway cars, about 30+ years.
MrsNesbitt
Active Member
Indeed. Anyone who expected Tory to be fully progressive on the transit front is getting a real wake-up with this.
Not to mention building LRT now, when there is funding for it, means future-proofing the corridor. Ridership will only be increasing as time goes on; coupled with the other benefits as listed above it's better to put in LRT now, especially when it's fully planned out and funded.
smallspy
Senior Member
Rail vehicles, unless being built for New York's MTA, have a planned lifespan of 25 years.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
robmausser
Senior Member
The LRT's never needed strong support from the mayor to begin with. They aren't a mayoral issue, they are being built by the province and funded by the province.
Rob Ford made it a mayoral issue.
So its ok that its not a priority or even a thought for the mayor, because it will get done without their input.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Is the actual lifespan usually longer than the planned life span? IIRC, all of the TTC's recent retirements the rail vehicles were of vehicles that we're all over 25 years old.
Tuscani01
Senior Member
Bingo! It's not his priority because it was never a city priority to begin with. It's a Metrolinx priority. John Tory can never mention Finch West LRT and it will still get built, and he won't need to take the heat for building it because it's not his project. Technically, it was passed under Mayor Ford.
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CDL.TO
Moderator
Transit City was passed under Mayor Miller.
Metrolinx has made it extremely clear by both their words and their actions in the past that, with the exception of GO projects, they are not interested in pursuing projects that do not have the support of local politicians. Look at the death, rebirth, and redeath of Transit City and its individual components, like the Scarborough LRT/Subway. Unless there is a serious change of government at then provincial level, don't expect Metrolinx to be undertaking any projects that don't come along with photos of provincial and local politicians "working together".
Things get complicated when local politicians are pulling in different directions. That was an issue in Toronto for a while but the downfall of Ford quickly resolved that conflict. If the local councillors and the mayor are both saying that they don't care about the Finch West LRT, odds are good that it's simply going to die one of the political deaths where nothing gets done and it simply fades away.
That said, I wouldn't write it off quite yet. There is more than one city councillor and Maria Aguimeri has spoken in favour and city council has voted in favour. Ford offered outlandish promises of a Finch West subway which helped cause local councillors to reduce their support for the LRT. I think when it becomes clear that it's LRT or nothing and that the project is in actual danger of being cancelled, Council could turn up the heat on Tory and have him turn his non-answer into a clear endorsement.
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crs1026
Senior Member
Debating BRT vs LRT for this route is a bit academic.....Mammo's proposal is to do NOTHING on this route (except buy Articulated buses). He seems to want to divert the budgeted money altogether. Replacing LRT with a BRT might save some dollars, but not on the magnitude he's seeking.
The thing I have never understood about the Finch line is....what market is it proposing to serve? It looks like a great plan to help people in the Northwest get to the Spadina Subway and downtown quicker - but is that really what people in the Northwest need most?
Any east-west line in the north end needs to enable direct, non-transfer trips across the top of the whole city. Building another smaller stub line just replicates the Sheppard Subway mistake...the money runs out, and we shift our focus somewhere else, but what was built doesn't accomplish enough to have been worth it.
It might make sense to shift the Finch money to maximise the reach of existing lines e.g. extend the Eglinton Crosstown to the Airport (that's an LRT for LRT swap, so LRT proponents shouldn't be opposed) and deal with Finch later. Or shift it to accelerate the Sheppard project (in whatever form that makes sense) from the Spadina line all the way east. Or stick to the premise of a line on Finch, but reaching well east of Yonge.
It's a noble aspiration to try to drive transit to every part of the city, but the funding reality means Toronto will need to pick and choose. I'm not a Mammo fan, nor a Smarttrack moonie, but there may be good reason to redirect the money, just not where Mammo wants it to go.
- Paul
The thing I have never understood about the Finch line is....what market is it proposing to serve? It looks like a great plan to help people in the Northwest get to the Spadina Subway and downtown quicker - but is that really what people in the Northwest need most?
Any east-west line in the north end needs to enable direct, non-transfer trips across the top of the whole city. Building another smaller stub line just replicates the Sheppard Subway mistake...the money runs out, and we shift our focus somewhere else, but what was built doesn't accomplish enough to have been worth it.
It might make sense to shift the Finch money to maximise the reach of existing lines e.g. extend the Eglinton Crosstown to the Airport (that's an LRT for LRT swap, so LRT proponents shouldn't be opposed) and deal with Finch later. Or shift it to accelerate the Sheppard project (in whatever form that makes sense) from the Spadina line all the way east. Or stick to the premise of a line on Finch, but reaching well east of Yonge.
It's a noble aspiration to try to drive transit to every part of the city, but the funding reality means Toronto will need to pick and choose. I'm not a Mammo fan, nor a Smarttrack moonie, but there may be good reason to redirect the money, just not where Mammo wants it to go.
- Paul
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Tuscani01
Senior Member
While Miller initiated Transit City, the final vote to move forward with Finch took place in 2012, while Ford was Mayor.
As for the Province and City needing to be on the same page to move forward with a project... the Province has already shown that it is willing to go at it alone in the case of the RT conversion to subway. The Province is moving forward with a subway, and has said it will proceed with a subway regardless of what the city decides now. I imagine that Metrolinx would proceed with Finch as planned, considering it has already received the go-ahead to proceed, as well as the funding.
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ehlow
Senior Member
It serves the same market as the Finch West bus, which has very high ridership, except that it's much higher capacity, faster, more reliable and more comfortable than the Finch West bus. It's double the length of the Sheppard subway.
CDL.TO
Moderator
That vote was only to overturn the memorandum of understanding where Finch was cancelled and replaced by the fully underground Eglinton LRT. It's only relevant to mention that it was passed under Ford within the overall context of what was going on.
The RT conversion to subway is favoured by local politicians and by the mayor. It's exactly met the criteria I set out in my post. It's even being supported by council! They may have said that they'll "go it alone", but they've also repeatedly said that they don't want to build projects without local support. You should be interpreting their threat to "go it alone" as a way of saying that they don't want the debate to go on any longer. It's more of a "Stop arguing or I'll pull the car over! I swear I'll do it!".
And besides, it's not really "going it alone" when the province isn't even fully funding it!
What the Ford years has taught us is that Metrolinx and the province tend to follow local political trends, and not the other way around.
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