News   Apr 18, 2024
 589     0 
News   Apr 18, 2024
 5K     1 
News   Apr 18, 2024
 2.3K     4 

Finch West Line 6 LRT

The comment you replied to was regarding hight-floor and third rail. Calgary and Edmonton don't have third rail.

My whole point is that we could use dual-mode vehicles that use the existing third rail in the tunnel and pantograph on the surface, a solution that has been used elsewhere.

His comment said he had trouble visualizing how raised platform stations would interface with the street/road and I tried to provide some examples for other locations.

I'm not sure where the confusion creeped in.
 
I still don't like the idea of mixing Finch and Sheppard together. Keep it simple. Just a build a full-length Finch LRT, East and West. There's no need to involve Sheppard in that routing.
 
I'm glad that you now agree that the Sheppard line isn't incapable of handling LRT cars!

The SRT issue was that it was proprietary technology owned by one company. "LRT with dual mode third rail and pantograph" has nothing proprietary about it. Personally, I've been on four different models of LRT rolling stock that meet those specs, built by four different manufacturers (Bombardier, Düwag, BN, and CAF), here in the Netherlands alone! So single manufacturer or single points shouldn't be an issue.

It's clear that it isn't a technological issue and that we could run LRT vehicles on the Sheppard subway, but you're right that it is a question about cost effectiveness. Basically, would the long-term costs of having an extra model of rolling stock to maintain (and of potentially having to make design changes to the planned LRT) outweigh the customer inconvenience of a transfer at Don Mills? That is a question which the TTC has never asked.

You make so many wild assumptions of things you don't know. You personally know for a fact that the TTC has never investigated this?

Perhaps they have but realized it was incapable or too costly just to eliminate a single transfer point.

Just because you've personally ridden on some other systems doesn't mean that it will work here.

There are tons of engineering problems with this that you are omitting.

This also comes down to a political faux pas called the sunk-costs fallacy and it is one that kills political careers.

Subways are deemed as a better level of transit than LRT's by the general public. And its somewhat true, the subway cars do hold more passengers than an LRT.

Imagine the outcry that would come when the public around the Sheppard Subway found out that after 15 years they were converting their heavy rail subway system to light rail LRT. A DOWNGRADE! (in the public eyes)

There would be an outcry of government waste, spending millions on a system that was only 15 years old to downgrade it to a lesser technology.
 
You make so many wild assumptions of things you don't know. You personally know for a fact that the TTC has never investigated this?

Perhaps they have but realized it was incapable or too costly just to eliminate a single transfer point.

Just because you've personally ridden on some other systems doesn't mean that it will work here.

There are tons of engineering problems with this that you are omitting.

This also comes down to a political faux pas called the sunk-costs fallacy and it is one that kills political careers.

Subways are deemed as a better level of transit than LRT's by the general public. And its somewhat true, the subway cars do hold more passengers than an LRT.

Imagine the outcry that would come when the public around the Sheppard Subway found out that after 15 years they were converting their heavy rail subway system to light rail LRT. A DOWNGRADE! (in the public eyes)

There would be an outcry of government waste, spending millions on a system that was only 15 years old to downgrade it to a lesser technology.

Seems like you said to yourself "let's throw a bunch of stuff and see what sticks".

No, I don't know that the TTC has never investigated this. However, they have never released any results of an investigation publicly or as part of board meetings documents. On his blog, Steve Munro has discussed the TTC looking into using the Sheppard line for LRT, but has only mentioned them considering changing the design of the existing stations, rather than considering a different rolling stock. If you have some time of insider knowledge that the TTC has indeed studied this, you should share!

Not Invented Here Syndrome isn't a complete argument. Tell me *why* a dual-mode rail vehicle (examples of which exist in New York, Boston, the UK, and The Netherlands) won't work in Toronto.

Please, let me know about these tons of engineering problems so that I can actually attempt to respond to them.

As far as I can tell, the sunk cost fallacy would suggest that it is a fallacy to not consider alternative solutions simply because so much money has been sunk into the subway-and-Transit City LRT status quo.

As for public opinion, it is indeed an unfortunate issue that for two types of rolling stock, delivering the same speed of operation, grade separation, and capacity, that one could be considered inferior because it is also capable of operating in a non-grade-separated environment. It is a legacy of the Ford era that we will have to continue to deal with. So I will agree that there is a political issue. In fact, I would argue that the only real issue is a political one. But I'd like to at least establish whether my idea is financially feasible before worrying about cynical public responses.
 
Last edited:
LRT in Calgary and Edmonton are all high-floor, in case you've been there, but those stations tend to be a bit more elaborate than what's planned for Toronto's lines.

Here are some more straightforward examples:
Los Angeles - Expo Line
Germany - Stuttgart
The Netherlands - Utrecht

These high floor platforms would have been much better received by the passengers. There is some safety in being on an elevated island instead of at street level.
Speaking of elevated, passengers would have much preferred being elevated +/-8m above the road - but that is another story.
 
Etobicoke General Hospital (Hwy. 27 & Humber College Blvd.) will be expanding. See link.

The hospital would be closest and using the Hwy. 27 stop. Unfortunately, at present, it would be located on the west side of Hwy. 27, while the hospital is on the east side. That means patients, staff, and visitors would have to cross the busy Hwy. 27 (and Humber College Blvd.) to get between the stop and the hospital. In winter as well. While the plans for the hospital expansion show that they maybe finished by 2017, there are no plans at present that show how it would connect with any Hwy. 27 stop.

Hopefully, whenever they actually show detailed plans for the Hwy. 27 stop, they will include some sort connection (a skywalk would be nice) between the stop and the hospital. Construction for the Finch LRT may start in 2016.

This is a heads up.
 
Last edited:
Imagine the outcry that would come when the public around the Sheppard Subway found out that after 15 years they were converting their heavy rail subway system to light rail LRT. A DOWNGRADE! (in the public eyes).

Just wait until the Eglinton LRT opens. The cries of bloody murder regarding at-grade LRT will cease, and people will start asking themselves "Why can I go from an at-grade setup to a tunnelled setup without transferring at Don Mills on Eglinton, but I have to transfer when I do the same thing at Sheppard?" The cries to do something will get louder.

And yes, if all you do is convert the Sheppard Subway to run LRT and don't extend it or anything, then you open yourself up to criticism. But if it's converted as part of a larger project to connect the Sheppard and Finch LRTs, then the conversion serves a key purpose, and is to a large extent merely mimicking what's on Eglinton.

I think the folly when it comes to the Sheppard conversion is that most people look at it through today's political transit lens. When there is a real-world example of LRT operating in Toronto (at this rate, Eglinton will probably be first), I think a lot of the cries of bloody murder from the LRT opposition will start to fade. In a lot of ways, the opposition to LRT is a lot like the opposition to Obamacare: a wealth of misinformation spread to uninformed masses in order to rile up opposition to something that is actually in their best interests. Give them a working example of how it will work, and that opposition and misinformation starts to ring hollow.
 
As for public opinion, it is indeed an unfortunate issue that for two types of rolling stock, delivering the same speed of operation, grade separation, and capacity, that one could be considered inferior because it is also capable of operating in a non-grade-separated environment. It is a legacy of the Ford era that we will have to continue to deal with. So I will agree that there is a political issue. In fact, I would argue that the only real issue is a political one. But I'd like to at least establish whether my idea is financially feasible before worrying about cynical public responses.

I think conversion to LRT would be acceptable to the public if the line was built grade-separated from Don Mills to STC - and maybe from Yonge to Downsview. Be it LRT, SkyTrain, or smaller metro like Montreal.

It is not unacceptable because the trains are capable of "operating in a non-grade-separated environment", it is because the trains would be "operating in a non-grade-separated environment"
 
These high floor platforms would have been much better received by the passengers. There is some safety in being on an elevated island instead of at street level.
Speaking of elevated, passengers would have much preferred being elevated +/-8m above the road - but that is another story.

Actually, I prefer the at-grade platforms since there's no stairs or elevators needed. The streetcar stops on St. Clair for example are so easy to use.
 
There'll also be the issue of what to replace the current T1s with on Sheppard, unless they replace them with TRs and knock out those walls to take 6 car trains. Shortening the TRs would make 2 of it's cars go to waste.
 
I'm glad that you now agree that the Sheppard line isn't incapable of handling LRT cars!

Perhaps I should have phrased things differently. How about "The tunnels used by Sheppard are not capable of handling OUR LRT cars"?

The SRT issue was that it was proprietary technology owned by one company. "LRT with dual mode third rail and pantograph" has nothing proprietary about it. Personally, I've been on four different models of LRT rolling stock that meet those specs, built by four different manufacturers (Bombardier, Düwag, BN, and CAF), here in the Netherlands alone! So single manufacturer or single points shouldn't be an issue.

You missed the point Chris.

You are suggested that we go out and find some sort of car style that would be capable of being used both within the tunnels and on the street. While that in and of itself is not insurmountable, the main sticking points is going to be how to deal with the different station configurations above and below ground. Reusing the existing infrastructure of the Sheppard subway would require a high-floor car. The surface stops are designed for a low-floor car. How do you reconcile the differences between the two different designs standards?

It's clear that it isn't a technological issue and that we could run LRT vehicles on the Sheppard subway, but you're right that it is a question about cost effectiveness. Basically, would the long-term costs of having an extra model of rolling stock to maintain (and of potentially having to make design changes to the planned LRT) outweigh the customer inconvenience of a transfer at Don Mills?

And we could run buses instead of having built a subway. Does that mean that it would be an efficient use of resources? Of course not.

We know that building a subway under Sheppard wasn't the right choice. But it's what we've got, and in the absence of an easy, cost-effective manner of "fixing" it, we may as well keep working with it rather than against it. The planned connections at Don Mills Station were just a part of the plan to make it better.

That is a question which the TTC has never asked.

You would be surprised. Just because it's never been mentioned publicly doesn't mean that they haven't had discussions and internal reports about it. A lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes that never makes the light of day.

How much would it cost to add third rail power collection to the Flexity Freedom? Or couldn't the TTC buy and LRV that is designed to use third rail collection (there are a few LRT systems with third rail power)? Of course the five stations would have to be retrofitted with platform doors, to prevent idiots from getting Darwined on the third rail.

Side-mounted - it can't be done. The carbody was not designed to allow it.

Centre-mounted - I suppose. But I don't know what kind of engineering would be required to insulate and run power cables from locations where they were never designed to be run.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
i'm going to admit my ignorance. What is the precise clearance available between the roofline of a Flexity and the roof of the Sheppard tunnel at its most restrictive point? Are we talking millimeters or feet?

- Paul
 
i'm going to admit my ignorance. What is the precise clearance available between the roofline of a Flexity and the roof of the Sheppard tunnel at its most restrictive point? Are we talking millimeters or feet?

- Paul

The issue isn't the roofline - the car is shorter than a subway car, and narrower too.

The issue is the clearance required for the pantograph. That is why the tunnels for subways only need to be 5.2 metres in diameter (or 5.4 when factoring curves), whereas the tunnels for the Eglinton Line are over 6 metres.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
The issue isn't the roofline - the car is shorter than a subway car, and narrower too.

The issue is the clearance required for the pantograph. That is why the tunnels for subways only need to be 5.2 metres in diameter (or 5.4 when factoring curves), whereas the tunnels for the Eglinton Line are over 6 metres.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Dan, I figured as much.....what I was curious about is, how much is the deficiency? If it's only a little, could a pantograph be engineered to 'duck' when in the tunnel? Or is the clearance to the roofline too small to be safe given voltages etc?

Hopefully pantograph design isn't comet probe science :)

- Paul
 

Back
Top