Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[Admiral Beez]

Here a question, where would everyone be today if the Sheppard LRT was built with an 2014 opening date as plan?

Since this was a Metrolinx project, the issue with the cars would surface sooner, but would Metrolinx deal with the problems different than they are now??

We could have an new LRT Line with no cars for like Waterloo has today or a few cars that wasn't worth the effort to have them in service.

Would TTC started to look at other suppliers knowing BBD was going to be late??

I thought we were?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Here a question, where would everyone be today if the Sheppard LRT was built with an 2014 opening date as plan?

Since this was a Metrolinx project, the issue with the cars would surface sooner, but would Metrolinx deal with the problems different than they are now??

We could have an new LRT Line with no cars for like Waterloo has today or a few cars that wasn't worth the effort to have them in service.

We probably wouldn't have problems with Metrolinx wining about not having vehicles they don't need part of the problem for the delays is the consistently change schedule thanks to Toronto City Council changing the plans. Metro,linx got caught up in au=it and niether side wants to take the balme for the cahnges to the nedds of the order of cars from Bombaridier.

Would TTC started to look at other suppliers knowing BBD was going to be late??

I don't really think that's the exact reason for it. Technically what they are putting out an RFI for is for a new set of streetcars that they would need in the future. They just want to avoid the criticism that they got when they sole source Toronto Rocket trains by saying that they were a newer version of the T1's.

 

[smallspy]

Here a question, where would everyone be today if the Sheppard LRT was built with an 2014 opening date as plan?

Since this was a Metrolinx project, the issue with the cars would surface sooner, but would Metrolinx deal with the problems different than they are now??

We could have an new LRT Line with no cars for like Waterloo has today or a few cars that wasn't worth the effort to have them in service.

Would TTC started to look at other suppliers knowing BBD was going to be late??

The issue of late delivery of the cars would have appeared sooner, but I suspect that by that same token some of the knock-on effects - the cars for Kitchener arriving late, for instance - wouldn't have happened.

Let's work our way back up the chain, shall we?

Bombardier has had no incentive to actually complete the configuration of the cars until fairly recently, because there was no where to actually deliver them to (and now that Kitchener is by-and-large done, they can receive the first dozen-plus cars that were originally scheduled for Metrolinx). Had a 2014 - or 2015, or 2016, or whatever date the Sheppard line would have actually been opened, all going well - timeline been in effect like it had been at the signing of the contract, than there's no reason to believe that they would have had some number cars done by now (and certainly more than they've completed to date). After all, the production line would have been in place earlier to deal with the earlier deliveries.

Might Bombardier have been late with the deliveries to the point of delaying the opening of Sheppard? Considering their recent history, there's no reason to think that they wouldn't have been. But we may also have been riding an LRT system in Kitchener right now as well.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Allandale25]

Now that Metrolinx and BBD are working through mediation, what are the likely scenarios for the Flexity Freedom LRVs ordered? Metrolinx and BBD will agree to a reduce order and some lines will have a mixed fleet? The Alstom order will be reduced? If you had to make an educated guess (I know, risky) on what you think will happen, what would it be?

 

[TOareaFan]

Now that Metrolinx and BBD are working through mediation, what are the likely scenarios for the Flexity Freedom LRVs ordered? Metrolinx and BBD will agree to a reduce order and some lines will have a mixed fleet? The Alstom order will be reduced? If you had to make an educated guess (I know, risky) on what you think will happen, what would it be?

My guess is that both orders will be filled as planned and ML will find somewhere to use all the vehicles.

 

[smallspy]

My guess is that both orders will be filled as planned and ML will find somewhere to use all the vehicles.

My guess is the same - Metrolinx has really shot themselves in the foot here (or backed themselves into a corner - whichever analogy you prefer) and are now going to be saddled with a lot of extra vehicles, way more than they'll ever need. I suspect that they'll end up selling some of them at a loss - and then try and spin it as some sort of great thing that they were able to sell off these units that were sitting, gathering dust.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Markster]

A Flexity Freedom, sitting at Northfield Station in Waterloo, courtesy of Bombardier's twitter

https://twitter.com/BombardierRail/status/915554622479192065

 

[Sandpit]

My guess is the same - Metrolinx has really shot themselves in the foot here (or backed themselves into a corner - whichever analogy you prefer) and are now going to be saddled with a lot of extra vehicles, way more than they'll ever need. I suspect that they'll end up selling some of them at a loss - and then try and spin it as some sort of great thing that they were able to sell off these units that were sitting, gathering dust.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

My guess is that this is actually "insurance" against a future (PC) government cancelling LRT lines, but they really can't admit that for obvious reasons. If no lines are cancelled, there wouldn't be extra vehicles.

 

[cplchanb]

My guess is that this is actually "insurance" against a future (PC) government cancelling LRT lines, but they really can't admit that for obvious reasons. If no lines are cancelled, there wouldn't be extra vehicles.

Have the hamilton and hurontario cars been ordered yet? Perhaps they can sell them to those lines when they get built

 

[robmausser]

Have the hamilton and hurontario cars been ordered yet? Perhaps they can sell them to those lines when they get built

They have. But I think everyone is overreacting.

I think ridership on some lines like the Eglinton LRT will be higher than expected. My reasoning is that everyone already packs into a ton of buses on Eglinton, and its such an unenjoyable ride that I can only imagine those people are carless and have no other option. Once you switch to a nicer transit method, you get those people and then the people who decided to drive instead of be crammed into a bus taking the LRT. And more cars will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Allandale25]

Have the hamilton and hurontario cars been ordered yet? Perhaps they can sell them to those lines when they get built

I thought Metrolinx already indicated that they were going to use the Alstom LRVs for Hurontario and Hamilton? For Hurontario there are already using the image of the Alstom LRV. Thanks for all the predictions. Would it be possible that Metrolinx has a clause in their contract with Alstom that if they are in fact forced to use the BBD LRVs that they'll automatically take fewer BBD LRVs and just use the Alstom ones for Hurontario and Hamilton?

 

[robmausser]

My guess is that this is actually "insurance" against a future (PC) government cancelling LRT lines, but they really can't admit that for obvious reasons. If no lines are cancelled, there wouldn't be extra vehicles.

I think the better decision too would be to expedite another LRT line like Jane LRT or something and use up the cars rather than sell them off.

As we can see, the biggest wait seems to be for the vehicles to be built, an above ground LRT line can be expedited to be built in a couple of years.

 

[innsertnamehere]

The plan is to use the Bombardier LRVs for Eglinton and Finch provided that they arrive on time, and then place the Alstom order onto Hurontario and Hamilton. If the LRVs do not arrive on time, Alstom will be optioned for more to provide for all lines / the bombardier cars will go to Hurontario and Hamilton. as they arrive late.

 

[TOareaFan]

My guess is the same - Metrolinx has really shot themselves in the foot here (or backed themselves into a corner - whichever analogy you prefer) and are now going to be saddled with a lot of extra vehicles, way more than they'll ever need. I suspect that they'll end up selling some of them at a loss - and then try and spin it as some sort of great thing that they were able to sell off these units that were sitting, gathering dust.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

We are nearly in full agreement....I don't think any surplus ones ever get sold....I think their existence (and the fact they are "already paid for") get used to justify the building of LRT lines on/in corridors that do not have the ridership to support LRT but, you know, "we already have the vehicles and it would be a waste not to use them".

 

[Ozman]

Is it confirmed that the Eglinton LRT line cars will use the grey, black and white livery that is on the Metrolinx pilot vehicles? So many renderings from Metrolinx have shown the green and white livery for years but then the pilot vehicles are grey.
I've recently seen somewhere renderings for Finch that show the Alstom in grey and I didn't know if this was going to be standard for Toronto or if it was to match the Finch Line 6 colour scheme. If the latter is the case then maybe Eglinton will be orange.

Personally I think the grey looks drab and unfinished. A brand new line should exude some excitement and colour like the Waterloo bright blue or the TTC Flexity outlook red. If the Eglinton cars are grey with grey seating I think it will be a rather flat look to and exciting new line. It would be like they were prototypes or painted with primer. I hope they don't blow this.