Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[Adjei]

I still say it's Metrolinx that caused the problems. Originally the ion order was supposed to be delivered after the metrolix prototypes but because metrolix dragees there feet and kept making changes Bombardier nagotiated seperetly with ion to provide them cars aged of Metrolinx because they don't have any where to put them yet. Metrolix should just be fired and the TTC should take over this project before it runs into any more problems.

Yeah it must also be Metrolinx fault that Bombardier is behind with the TTC orders. You must work for Bombardier by the way you defend them.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Yeah it must also be Metrolinx fault that Bombardier is behind with the TTC orders. You must work for Bombardier by the way you defend them.

First of all no I don't work for Bombardier.
Second I do blame them for the lateness of the TT order they chose to build the frames in a plant in mexico and it bit them in the ass, they are now correcting that mistake by building them in europe and in Canada where they should have in the first place. Apparently what happened was that every time one of the welders was well trained in building of them they left and went to another company.
Third I still say Metrolinx is making mistakes one by airing their dirty laundry in the media and tow bu not wanting to take any responsibility for problems other then to blame someone else.

 

[cplchanb]

First of all no I don't work for Bombardier.
Second I do blame them for the lateness of the TT order they chose to build the frames in a plant in mexico and it bit them in the ass, they are now correcting that mistake by building them in europe and in Canada where they should have in the first place. Apparently what happened was that every time one of the welders was well trained in building of them they left and went to another company.
Third I still say Metrolinx is making mistakes one by airing their dirty laundry in the media and tow bu not wanting to take any responsibility for problems other then to blame someone else.

Seems to me you have a vendetta against Metrolinx regardless of what they do. OK fine ml changed the spec a few times but surely it shouldn't have taken over 2 years to accommodate or at least have something built. What are the changes that were requested anyways?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Seems to me you have a vendetta against Metrolinx regardless of what they do. OK fine ml changed the spec a few times but surely it shouldn't have taken over 2 years to accommodate or at least have something built. What are the changes that were requested anyways?

At this point it's not about changing specs it's about metrolix wanting vechles before they have any track to test them on. Bombardier has been building transit vechles before metrolix was even thought of. Metrolix is just a government run company that was created so that the Ontario government could take back go trasit and try and run public transit in the province, so far all they have done is fund the building of public transit lines that will be run by someone else.

 

[cplchanb]

At this point it's not about changing specs it's about metrolix wanting vechles before they have any track to test them on. Bombardier has been building transit vechles before metrolix was even thought of. Metrolix is just a government run company that was created so that the Ontario government could take back go trasit and try and run public transit in the province, so far all they have done is fund the building of public transit lines that will be run by someone else.

Whether they have a track or not is not bbrs business. They are responsible for turning out a product in reasonable time.
If they built vehicles in a reasonable schedule and have no track to run it fine, but they have nothing made until late last year even though they themselves promised they would have

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Whether they have a track or not is not bbrs business. They are responsible for turning out a product in reasonable time.
If they built vehicles in a reasonable schedule and have no track to run it fine, but they have nothing made until late last year even though they themselves promised they would have

If you don't agree with me that's fine let's just see what happens and who ends up delivery what and if anything actually happens before we start prasing one company over the other. Who knows alstrom could have a strike that causes delays in them building the vechles plus Metrolinx hasn't actually said if they will be in service in Toronto or anywhere yet it's just shows to me that they have no respect for the contracts that they heir to do the job. Don't forget they tried to blame the problem with the bridge in Pickering taking to long on a contractor putting a column in upside down.

 

[44 North]

Don't forget they tried to blame the problem with the bridge in Pickering taking to long on a contractor putting a column in upside down.

I personally lost a lot of respect for Metrolinx with that. They told a story, had the AG write a report about the story, vetted the report, did the rounds on the news telling the report-backed story, then a few weeks later pretty much said 'whoops, sorry, none of that was true'. I only give cursory glances at the news about Mlinx v BBD, but factoring the bridge thing I have trouble believing what I read as truth.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I personally lost a lot of respect for Metrolinx with that. They told a story, had the AG write a report about the story, vetted the report, did the rounds on the news telling the report-backed story, then a few weeks later pretty much said 'whoops, sorry, none of that was true'. I only give cursory glances at the news about Mlinx v BBD, but factoring the bridge thing I have trouble believing what I read as truth.

Exactly my thoughts too I just don't get what they plan to do with the vechles between now and 2021 are they building some sort of wherehose somewhere to store them. I get that they need to test them but 4 years of testing seems a bit excessive to me. The TTC only did about 2 or maybe even less with the new Streetcars and ion is planning to be open sometime next year. Like I said before metrolix is the new kid on the block and they seem to think that just because they are owned by the government everyone should listen to them.

 

[Steve X]

Exactly my thoughts too I just don't get what they plan to do with the vechles between now and 2021 are they building some sort of wherehose somewhere to store them. I get that they need to test them but 4 years of testing seems a bit excessive to me. The TTC only did about 2 or maybe even less with the new Streetcars and ion is planning to be open sometime next year. Like I said before metrolix is the new kid on the block and they seem to think that just because they are owned by the government everyone should listen to them.

The Mt Dennis carhouse/yard/MSF (whatever you want to call it) would be up and running within a year. They don't need 4 years to test them. It would be less than a year of testing. Probably closer to a few months to half a year. The BBD cars would go into production in 2019. It will take at least 2 years to deliver all 76 of them. As long as the prototype is ready to go (completely working) next year when the carhouse and test track (between Mt Dennis and Keelesdale stations) is ready, everything should be fine. This gives BBD another half a year to goof around and get the prototype working before ML can really call them out. ML will need most of the LRVs burnt in before opening day.

The TTC testing took much longer cause they are limited to mostly night time or even road closures with a high speed acceleration and braking test. They have to plan everything out and execute carefully within time frames. ML can just do the test whenever they want once the tracks are done. TTC have to test every piece of track as the streetcar might not fit. The system is built for the Freedom LRV oppose to the other way around. Testing shouldn't even take half as long as TTC did.

 

[muller877]

Back in court....ML are appealing

https://twitter.com/moore_oliver/status/867499717369880576

Why are the waiting so long to appeal? Metrolinx thinks it is urgent and they waited until the last day to file. If it's urgent you tell your lawyers to work overnight and get the appeal filed in 1-2 weeks. A judge will now put this appeal in the normal process and not rush it. Why should they if Metrolinx doesn't rush it themselves?

Or have their lawyers said its a lost cause and ML is just saving face?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

The Mt Dennis carhouse/yard/MSF (whatever you want to call it) would be up and running within a year. They don't need 4 years to test them. It would be less than a year of testing. Probably closer to a few months to half a year. The BBD cars would go into production in 2019. It will take at least 2 years to deliver all 76 of them. As long as the prototype is ready to go (completely working) next year when the carhouse and test track (between Mt Dennis and Keelesdale stations) is ready, everything should be fine. This gives BBD another half a year to goof around and get the prototype working before ML can really call them out. ML will need most of the LRVs burnt in before opening day.

The TTC testing took much longer cause they are limited to mostly night time or even road closures with a high speed acceleration and braking test. They have to plan everything out and execute carefully within time frames. ML can just do the test whenever they want once the tracks are done. TTC have to test every piece of track as the streetcar might not fit. The system is built for the Freedom LRV oppose to the other way around. Testing shouldn't even take half as long as TTC did.

I think the problem is Metrolinx has no experience other then receiving Go train cars which have already gone through the test and adjust period before they were even thought of, that and they may not have anyone with a background in public Transit on their executive board. To me the later shows the most as they don't seem to work well with other transit agencies especially when they are dealing with Presto.

 

[Steve X]

I think the problem is Metrolinx has no experience other then receiving Go train cars which have already gone through the test and adjust period before they were even thought of, that and they may not have anyone with a background in public Transit on their executive board. To me the later shows the most as they don't seem to work well with other transit agencies especially when they are dealing with Presto.

They'll have BBD employees to assist them with testing. Every new systems around the world (such as the KW ION) wouldn't know what to do either. That's why they usually get a private company to do all the design and commissioning work. No experience with LRTs isn't a problem. ML however decided they'll do their own design work with no experience and send crappy specs to BBD. That's a problem.

 

[cplchanb]

They'll have BBD employees to assist them with testing. Every new systems around the world (such as the KW ION) wouldn't know what to do either. That's why they usually get a private company to do all the design and commissioning work. No experience with LRTs isn't a problem. ML however decided they'll do their own design work with no experience and send crappy specs to BBD. That's a problem.

Trying to stay neutral here but can you please elaborate on "crappy specs". Do you have access to their specs and how can you gauge their crappiness based on what was debated in the media? Can you justify that ML went lone wolf on their design work as well?

 

[smallspy]

Trying to stay neutral here but can you please elaborate on "crappy specs". Do you have access to their specs and how can you gauge their crappiness based on what was debated in the media? Can you justify that ML went lone wolf on their design work as well?

He doesn't have access, and he doesn't know that they're crappy. He likes to go on about things he thinks that he knows about.

The truth is that there was nothing wrong with Metrolinx's specs per se. They were written up with the help of a very knowledgeable consulting firm (LTK), who has been acting as a purchasing manager throughout this whole process. The bigger issue is the wishy-washiness of Metrolinx, flipping back and forth not just on the specs as time has gone on, but also on the whole group of LRT projects that they are supposed to be taking care of. There has also been a fair amount of "left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing" - until about 2 and a half years ago, the vehicle delivery group was still thinking that they were going to have a facility in Scarborough to deliver the cars to - the Conlins Carhouse - whey they were very obviously not.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Allandale25]

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