Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[junctionist]

I don't think LRT makes much sense in small cities. Kitchener-Waterloo happened to have a single strong corridor, but small urban areas don't always have something like that. Even Mississauga and Brampton situation with Hurontario-Main is unusual, a suburban transit corridor that's by far the busiest even though it does not enter the central city. These kind of corridors are very rare and don't say much the applicability of LRT in small cities or in suburbs.

Lots of cities have those two denser main streets that intersect downtown. Light rail should be something to consider if a small city is growing to make urban development attractive, coupled with the planning to encourage urban development. Smaller cities of between 100,000 to 500,000 people don't have to be eroded by generation after generation of sprawl until their downtowns are empty. Looking at this list of light rail and tram systems in the world, I see many small cities. Their light rail investments may be modest, but represent a practical way of keeping the traditional city working rather than seeing it eroded by sprawl.

 

[nfitz]

I don't think LRT makes much sense in small cities.

And yet it's been a success in Calgary. I'd think they way they implemented it in Calgary would be less effective in smaller cities than they way they are implementing it in KW.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Full-Scale Model of Bombardier Flexity Freedom Coming to Surrey (July 1) and Vancouver (July 5-8th)

Surrey will get it first, at the Cloverdale Millennium Amphitheatre on July 1st from 10am to 6pm. Then Vancouver gets a look on Granville Island from July 6th to 8th. The model will also visit Edmonton and Calgary on its Western Canada tour.

The Flexity Freedom is the same vehicle that Bombardier is building for Metrolinx in Toronto and it is tailored for North American design standards and climate. The vehicle frame and carbody sidewalls are made of stainless steel that can handle all the salt put on roads every winter.

See this link.

 

[innsertnamehere]

why is the Detroit skyline its background? I think Detroit will be one of the last cities to be buying one of those...

 

[W. K. Lis]

why is the Detroit skyline its background? I think Detroit will be one of the last cities to be buying one of those...

Photoshop!

 

[junctionist]

That's a pathetic graphic for the "made-in-Canada light rail vehicle of the future" to tour western Canada. They obviously should have shown Toronto in the background as a leading light rail city that saved its streetcars and is embarking on the largest LRT expansion in the country. Instead, we get some sort of weird "imported from Detroit" image.

 

[Red October]

That's a pathetic graphic for the "made-in-Canada light rail vehicle of the future" to tour western Canada. They obviously should have shown Toronto in the background as a leading light rail city that saved its streetcars and is embarking on the largest LRT expansion in the country. Instead, we get some sort of weird "imported from Detroit" image.

Because people in the rest of Canada would have bitched and complained about it being "Toronto-centric" as per usual..

 

[junctionist]

Because people in the rest of Canada would have bitched and complained about it being "Toronto-centric" as per usual..

I say "too bad" to the hypothetical whiners, and so should Bombardier. There's no better example than the Canadian city which never gave up on light rail. Also, it's for their own good to be able to tap into Toronto's experience. It's one thing to whine about Toronto getting more attention in elections (though something like that can be justified as well), but to ignore or belittle our achievements and our positive contributions to urbanism in Canada is unacceptable.

 

[unimaginative2]

Hmmm. IIRC, Ottawa's LRT is entirely grade-separated - or, like Calgary/Edmonton - at least separated from running in the median of roadways. Since they're already building full stations rather than glorified streetcar stops, it would make more sense for them to have high platforms and high floor vehicles. I don't know if the Flexity has ever been released in a high floor model.

Agreed. The Ottawa plan is fantastic except for the choice of vehicles: it really makes absolutely no sense to go with far more expensive low-floor light rail vehicles when the line is completely grade-separated. There isn't even a single grade crossing. Automated light metro would be ideal for the route. The vehicles are cheaper than light rail vehicles, they lack the issues related to the low-floor design, and they're automated to save on operating costs and permit higher frequencies. I thought that they might be doing it in case of a future on-street extension, but the western extension is also being kept fully grade-separated. Much of the remainder of the route is on the existing fully grade-separated Transitway.

Low-floor light rail vehicles make sense when you have on-street segments. I can see lots of opportunity for Flexity in Western Canada. Calgary and Edmonton are in the midst of expansions. Vancouver is looking at a useful downtown circulator that would connect areas that aren't well-served by the Skytrain and the Canada Line. Victoria could potentially be a market, but it would be better off looking at an O-Train model out to Langford.

Speaking of the O-Train, it's a fantastic and well-used service that cost absolutely nothing to build. Its $21 million cost for 8km is 1/8th of Glenn De Baeremaeker's $170 million, 1.8 kilometre Zoo LRT branch. At that price, it would be extremely affordable even for small metropolitan areas, assuming they have a well-located rail corridor that sees limited freight use. The line down to Cambridge from Kitchener might work.

 

[Tuscani01]

I say "too bad" to the hypothetical whiners, and so should Bombardier. There's no better example than the Canadian city which never gave up on light rail. Also, it's for their own good to be able to tap into Toronto's experience. It's one thing to whine about Toronto getting more attention in elections (though something like that can be justified as well), but to ignore or belittle our achievements and our positive contributions to urbanism in Canada is unacceptable.

Easy there... its not a stab at Toronto. It's simply marketing, and Bombardier isn't the first and only company to do this. It is common practise to use a city that isn't recognizable to the average person, as it allows people to imagine it being anywhere. Put in the CN Tower, and Canadians from outside of Toronto would have a difficult time picturing it in their own city.

Bombardier isn't in the business of printing history textbooks, their job is to sell their product, and the way they went about it is exactly how you sell.

 

[drum118]

Easy there... its not a stab at Toronto. It's simply marketing, and Bombardier isn't the first and only company to do this. It is common practise to use a city that isn't recognizable to the average person, as it allows people to imagine it being anywhere. Put in the CN Tower, and Canadians from outside of Toronto would have a difficult time picturing it in their own city.

Bombardier isn't in the business of printing history textbooks, their job is to sell their product, and the way they went about it is exactly how you sell.

Was down in Croydon, Uk on Monday and rode the new Stadler 5 section 100% lowfloor car and way better than the mockup of Bombardier car.

There was a small ramp at each end where the seats are over the wheels. Very wide open where the accessibility, bike & strollers would be place. Seats 68. The driver cab is 3/4 of the end with doors right next to him.

Both the Stadler and Bombardier 2 sections cars got up to 80mph very fast.

Will post videos and photos in the coming weeks, as access to the net is not that great and most has connections has to be done from the lobby area. If it was from our room, could upload overnight or while we are out.

Doors are flush with the platform. Platforms are very simple and not close to what we have.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Region (of Waterloo) to negotiate for Bombardier LRT vehicles

From this link at Kitchener Post:

By Ryan Flanagan
Kitchener Post staff

Regional officials say they have no issues with Bombardier being given a special negotiating window for the procurement of 14 light rail transit trains. In fact, they say Bombardier is the only company able to meet the region’s specifications.

Councillors voted Tuesday to forgo a request for proposal-based procurement process in favour of adding their voice to ongoing negotiations between Metrolinx, a provincial Crown corporation which co-ordinates transit systems across Ontario, and Bombardier.

By working with Metrolinx, which is looking to purchase more than 200 LRT vehicles for Toronto’s system, the region expects to get a better price from Bombardier than if they were to order the 14 vehicles on their own.

“If we went out ourselves, it’s hard to predict what type of a premium we might pay for a small order,†said Thomas Schmidt, the region’s transportation commissioner.

Provincial funding for the LRT is contingent on the trains being Canadian-made to a certain extent. Schmidt said Bombardier’s plant in Thunder Bay is the only currently existing facility in Canada capable of producing the trains.

“If you talked to Siemens, they’d say that they’ll establish an assembly plant immediately. The reality is that they don’t have an assembly plant, and the reality is that for 14 cars, they’re not going to do that,†he said.

Councillors spoke in favour of the procurement approach.

“I think this is a very wise move,†said Coun. Sean Strickland, who said he liked the proposal for its cost-efficiency, its ability to meet the Canadian content requirement and the construction jobs it will provide Ontario.

While in favour of the procurement method, Coun. Tom Galloway asked for an assurance that the region would limit itself to purchasing the 14 trains it expects to need when the system is up and running in 2017.

“I don’t want to find out afterwards that because they’re so cheap, because this contract is so good, we’re going to add three more cars to the order,â€ he said.

The region expects to procure the trains for “somewhere in the range of $4 million per vehicle,†which Schmidt termed a competitive price.

Other advantages to the deal with Metrolinx, councillors were told, include savings in non-recurring costs such as the development of a request for proposals, as well as a potential opportunity for testing of the new trains to be done in Waterloo.

The end result of the negotiations will come to councillors for approval this fall.

 

[Markster]

[Tom Galloway asked for an assurance that the region would limit itself to purchasing the 14 trains it expects to need when the system is up and running in 2017]
I don’t want to find out afterwards that because they’re so cheap, because this contract is so good, we’re going to add three more cars to the order

A quality politician there. Making sure to shoot down any plans that might save money.

 

[SP!RE]

I'm absolutely thrilled that Waterloo is getting LRT... it's perfect for Waterloo, given how the cities of Waterloo and Kitchener are less of a grid system and more of a "developed along a linear route the entire way" city.

The one thing I'm very upset about is that they are tendering out the operation of the system to a private company. FML.

 

[mpd618]

A quality politician there. Making sure to shoot down any plans that might save money.

The "quality politics" is real - he (rightfully) doesn't want extra spending included as part of the budget for this LRT project. That way, it actually has a shot at coming in under budget. I'm sure staff are sufficiently clued in that there will be options for ordering more.