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LCBO / The Beer Store

Should the LCBO be deregulated?


  • Total voters
    169
  • Poll closed .
My natural instinct would be to privatize it.... but.... I like the way it is..... so I will fight my natural instinct. I do think that your local grocer should be able to carry beer and wine..... but I would probably walk the extra 10 minutes and go to LCBO.... better selection and prices.

I see it often quoted that the LCBO "makes" a billion dollars a year (when talk of privatization is in the air), but what is not as widely published is that they are double counting the taxes -- i.e. almost the entirety of the "profit" is taxes - and even if it is privatized - the taxes are still going to be collected.... which means that it has to cost more at your local store - since they are not getting any part of the taxes PLUS if they order it privately - they will not be able to negotiate the bulk discounts the LCBO can.

I just like the selection that we get at the LCBO.
 
Keep it the way it is. I don't want to have to phone around every convenience store in town to see if they've got my Minervois or Rioja in stock, when I'm parched and in extremis.

No need to go to a convenience store you could just go to a privately owned liquor depot like they have in ny state. They are also opened 9 am till midnight, great hours too just in case you get thirsty in the morning :D
 
We sold off Petro Canada, not to our advantage. Selling off the LCBO would also not be to our advantage. Don't sell off the LCBO!
 
Improve Service yes, privatization no

I'm not a fan of the privatization model, per se, for a few reasons.

1) The LCBO is net profitable, above and beyond liquor taxes, and provides an on-going stream of revenue which contributes to the Provincial budget. Were that revenue gone, taxes go up or services go down. YES, the revenue could be replaced by enhancing liquor taxes or 'leasing' retail licenses, however this would neutralize any pricing advantage to having competition.

2) If you privatize without breaking up the LCBO and without have a competitive environment in place, what you get is another BEER STORE. Which while impressive from an environmental perspective (the return program) it pretty much sucks at everything else. Meanwhile you've privatized the profit and granted a new monopoly. If you break up the LCBO and remove its monopoly you MAY get some pricing or convenience benefits, but you wont' get a good sale price on the assets. After all who wants to buy a business at full value that's about to lose a monopoly, be broken up, be required to changes brand names (since LCBO is a gov't agency name), and will certainly lose at least 1/2 its market share. There's very little winning proposition there, so you'll get 20c on the dollar selling it.

************

Now, that said, the LCBO/Current retail liquor sales model does have issues.

1) Minimum pricing. While I don't want to see wine going out the door at a $1.00 a bottle; that would surely foster social ills, neither does it need to be priced, at its low end, at the minimum of $6.50 (current LCBO policy)

This has the effect of making the European experience of having wine with dinner most evenings a good deal more expensive for the 'average' family.
There is no real justification for that.

According to ......someone I know.... a major Ontario winery wanted to promote the 'table wine' culture through the LCBO a few years ago.
They specifically offered to sell the LCBO decent (not great) wine, at about $2 to $3 a bottle with the aim of selling it at $5.00 per bottle retail.

The LCBO flatly refused said offer, saying it was not willing to lower the 'minimum price'.

That seems quite unreasonable, but one need not privatize to fix that, one simply needs to direct the LCBO to lower the minimum sell price to $5.00

With respect to beer the minimum price is established by provincial regulation at $24.00 for a 24 (or a buck a beer).

This could also be lowered, to say .80c a beer, or about $19.50 a case. Few brewers would go that low, but some would.


2) Hours of operation. The LCEEB does not need to make every store extended hours. But in a City like T.O. having no store open after 11, on a Friday/Sat. night is ridiculous.

It should be noted that when I was younger, they used to keep Summerhill (back before it was fancy) open till midnight on the weekends; so they've actually cut service.

I think it would be quite reasonable to bring the extended hours stores up to midnight on the weekends, 11 on weeknights and to have Sunday service go till 9pm.

While most smaller stores only really require slightly later Sunday hours, say till 7pm would be fine.

The LCEEB knows this is an issue, particularly the Sunday hours, and have quietly started expanding hours to 11-6 at some locations.

Apparently they don't want to go beyond that because they don't want to trigger the need for 2 shifts on Sundays. Why they can't just use a few part-timers for this is beyond me.

3) Stores. The LCEEB knows how to build nice stores. What it doesn't do is fix enough of the older ones; or build enough small ones for urban areas.

This can easily fixed. Its simply that the LCEEB doesn't want to spend the money right now, cause it doesn't have to. The gov't can give back $50M per year for a couple of years for new CAP-EX and the problem will be solved.

Much cheaper to Gov't than losing the monopoly.
 
The big fancy LCBO's are mostly in the big box parts of town. The LCBO's in the smaller towns like Cambridge are pretty run down they haven't put much work into them since the 70s. I picked up a bottle of Wolf Blass Chardonnay for $16 at the LCBO. i got the exact same bottle of wine in NY for $9 That is just outrageous.
 
I'm not a fan of the privatization model, per se, for a few reasons.

1) The LCBO is net profitable, above and beyond liquor taxes, and provides an on-going stream of revenue which contributes to the Provincial budget. Were that revenue gone, taxes go up or services go down. YES, the revenue could be replaced by enhancing liquor taxes or 'leasing' retail licenses, however this would neutralize any pricing advantage to having competition.

2) If you privatize without breaking up the LCBO and without have a competitive environment in place, what you get is another BEER STORE. Which while impressive from an environmental perspective (the return program) it pretty much sucks at everything else. Meanwhile you've privatized the profit and granted a new monopoly. If you break up the LCBO and remove its monopoly you MAY get some pricing or convenience benefits, but you wont' get a good sale price on the assets. After all who wants to buy a business at full value that's about to lose a monopoly, be broken up, be required to changes brand names (since LCBO is a gov't agency name), and will certainly lose at least 1/2 its market share. There's very little winning proposition there, so you'll get 20c on the dollar selling it.

1.) Not necessarily. In 2005 1.6b dollars of alcoholic beverages were sold in Alberta, while the Alberta government received 566m dollars of tax revenue off of the sale of alcohol, or roughly 34%. In the same year, 6.4b dollars of alcohol was sold in Ontario with only 1.6b in tax revenues being collected, or 25-26%. Alcoholic drinks are still cheaper in Alberta (from what I have seen at least) than Ontario.

2.) There has never really been a detailed plan for how the LCBO would be privatized, so I am just speculating. I would assume we would follow the Alberta model pretty closely though. The LCBO would start licensing more businesses to sell alcohol, which would introduce more players. At the same time, the LCBO would start selling of it's properties to various companies individually. They might not even stay liquor stores, I imagine condo developers would be interested in many of the properties. Non profitable branches would be shut down. I don't think the LCBO has ever been valuated, so I don't know what reference value we would be using. I've heard the that it could be sold for 6-12 billion, but have no idea how accurate that is. The LCBO is one of the only crown corps that I think could actually be privatized well. AECL, for instance, would be sold of for pennies on the dollar.
 
Deregulation is usually a good thing, but it takes years, if not decades for free enterprise to become as efficient in distributing the goods in question. I have no doubt that selection would decrease slightly, as private companies would not have the volume to stock a lot of the less popular items, but prices would come down in the long run, in some cases quite significantly. Californian wine that sells for $13 at the LCBO is sometimes advertised on Buffalo TV stations in 2-for-1 specials for $10.

Also, the biggest thing that pissed me off in the last year or so is that the LCBO made no effort whatsoever to lower prices on foreign wine (especially American) despite the huge gain in the Loonie. They just pocketed the difference.
 
If the people of Ontario own the LCBO, where's my dividend cheque? Can I buy more shares in LCBO? When's the next annual meeting, I want to attend and ask some questions? I want to complain about not receiving the LCBO annual report.
 
The people of Ontario DO own the LCBO. All the profits go to running the province. So why on earth would you get a dividend? You're already getting your money's worth in the running of the government.

I voted to keep the status quo. I like the LCBO and don't want to see it privatized. If they want to sell beer at grocery stores or something, I don't care. I don't drink beer.
 
Well with the Beer Store is sucked big time.


However the New LCBO stores are very popular and liked.

Keep it.
 
but I agree about the LCBoxes (I've coined another one!). The Beer Stores are worse, and about the most car-centric businesses in the province, apart from gas stations, car dealers and repair shops, even downtown.

Nice one! I agree with you about the new Beer Stores. They are little more than a box with a stucco billboard on it. (You may be able to tell that the overuse of stucco on big box stores really bothers me). I have a feeling they may be car-centric due to the fact that many drive there to drop off enormous amounts of empties and pick up new 2-4s all at once.


Also, get rid of the remaining paternalistic laws about alcohol, like the $1/beer floor price. I'm okay with the taxes otherwise.

Also agreed. Getting a bit off topic, but they should definitely have the ability to declare some areas as "alcohol zones" so that we don't have to have these stupid fences around our patios. I think it's pretty well proved that the ideas of prohibition... didn't really work.
 
Getting a bit off topic, but they should definitely have the ability to declare some areas as "alcohol zones" so that we don't have to have these stupid fences around our patios. I think it's pretty well proved that the ideas of prohibition... didn't really work.

I like the LCBO for the most part, the variety and numerous locations are excellent. However I must say that I agree with the quoted statement. They need to loosen up a bit when it comes to where we can drink. Keeping public intoxication laws in place, I don't see the harm in walking with a beer as someone would with a Coca-Cola. I like to enjoy my beer casually, and as far as I understand it's not illegal in many European countries to be out and about with a drink. Perhaps we should be a little more liberal with the regulations.

Oh, and for those of you needing your late night fix of additional beer or liquor: http://www.thebeerguy.ca/beer_info/toronto_liquor_delivery.php. There's also Dial-a-Bottle, however they have an additional charge on top of the alcohol itself.
 
I was in Nevada, and had no restrictions on having an open bottle of alcohol in a public, but designated place (Fremont Street). In Illinois, one is allowed to consume one's own alcohol on Metra trains. This is one area there should be some loosening of the rules (even just designating zones like at special public events) to get rid of damned beer gardens. That's AGCO (formerly LLBO), and has nothing to do with LCBO, though. But that may never happen with Dalton "father knows best" McGunity.
 
In the old days you could drink while driving in Texas as long as you weren't over the limit. They changed that to being able to drink and drive only if you weren't the driver.
 

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