King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

[Forgotten]

I don't think you've been on King Street before.

Don't tell me. Tell the people who are trying to justify a Queen subway by saying King is dead outside business hours. Kessmat and her underlings perpetuate the same lie in their planning documents.

 

[ksun]

Don't tell me. Tell the people who are trying to justify a Queen subway by saying King is dead outside business hours. Kessmat and her underlings perpetuate the same lie in their planning documents.

Nobody justifies a Queen subway by saying King is dead outside business hours. The rationale has always been the cost of digging under King street, and the fact that a Queen alignment is just as good. Both make perfect sense as long as one gets built but insisting on a King subway as if it is the only right choice is just a waste of time. It simply doesn't have the huge advantage people claim. On the other hand, some do make the unconvincing argument that a king subway can serve waterfront, Exhibition and CityPlace.

 

[WislaHD]

It probably can be (King Street). But it's likely a small city. Dollars to donuts King St has greater employment density. It's very pretty and who would not like to have a street like that?

Well, that picture I posted is actually the main street of the town center of Katowice, the heart of a 5 million metropolitan area. Nonetheless, this is a cash-strapped post-East Bloc industrial city with very little tourism, not the world city with the GDP of a small country that Toronto is. And you are correct, King Street has a much greater employment density than this European example.

This is how 3 Maja street looked like before the pedestrianization on Google Maps (from 2012).

Here are some more pictures post-pedestrianization:

 

[Johnny Au]

Even Buffalo has a transit mall, albeit one that is partially reverted to mixed traffic.

 

[ADRM]

I think it's strange in the extreme to assume that removing cars from King St. would somehow depress its impressive near-round-the-clock vibrancy.

 

[muller877]

Well, that picture I posted is actually the main street of the town center of Katowice, the heart of a 5 million metropolitan area. Nonetheless, this is a cash-strapped post-East Bloc industrial city with very little tourism, not the world city with the GDP of a small country that Toronto is. And you are correct, King Street has a much greater employment density than this European example.

This is how 3 Maja street looked like before the pedestrianization on Google Maps (from 2012).

Here are some more pictures post-pedestrianization:

The EU gives Poland about E4 billion (Cdn$6b) A YEAR in funding for these projects. So not cash strapped at all for transit.

 

[Filip]

I don't think it's fair to compare any European city and their transit malls. A) The EU funds which Poland disproportionately benefits from cannot be replicated here (we're the ones sending our money elsewhere for development).. B) Even Belgrade, the capital of a non-EU city, spends large amounts of money for these types of projects - however, look at a map of both cities. The entire Belgrade urban area could comfortably fit within the confines of old Toronto. And by that I mean the entire city.. Outside of that there are farms. That's 2 million people in an area significantly smaller than old Toronto - not the new megacity.

There are far fewer streets to maintain hence the budget being spent on public realm, transit malls, etc.

 

[WislaHD]

The EU gives Poland about E4 billion (Cdn$6b) A YEAR in funding for these projects. So not cash strapped at all for transit.

Spread upon a country bigger in population than Canada, with more cities of size and a humongous need for infrastructure investment, it is spread pretty thin. Poland needs to fund many of it's own projects itself.

Much of that money has gone to investing in highway infrastructure and inter-city passenger rail. I believe the transit mall project in Katowice was funded municipally. (Though it was done co-jointly with upgrades to the nearby rail station, which probably did get funds from the EU).

 

[BMO]

that philosophy seems to apply universally in Toronto, to the extent that the city tries to please drivers on every single street, even when it makes absolutely no sense, even when it comes at the cost of tens of thousands of transit riders and pedestrians. If put in a better managed city, Yonge between Queen and Bloor and Queen W between University and at least Bathurst would undoubtedly be car free, and the 501, 504 and 505 would have ROW. Honestly how many cars have to run on downtown Yonge, Queen and King??

But it is Toronto. Not allowing cars to run on any street is a flagrant violation of human rights.

Sure, in theory you can block off any arbitrary portion of road but will this mean that cyclists will be allowed to use it as a cycling highway? My experience in Amsterdam was really frustrating where, even though entire areas of the city were blocked off to cars I was constantly almost getting ran-over by bicycles which actually (oddly enough) made my walking experience worse than on roads that allowed cars.

 

[44 North]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think a complete ban on cars would actually make King Street less vibrant. Just look at photos of Swanston Street in Melbourne before and after its conversion to a transit mall. The street feels a bit empty and lifeless now, unless a streetcar happens to be passing through. And many transit malls have a similar feel, including those in Vancouver, Portland, and Calgary. They are certainly not the cities' most vibrant spaces - the buzzing streetlife slowly seeps away over time.

Adding uses to a street generally increases its vibrancy; excluding uses generally does the opposite. Look at how the bike lanes on Richmond and Adelaide instantly made them feel more pedestrian-friendly, even though the cars are still there. This is the "complete streets" paradigm.

So I hope we're practical, and not too high-minded, in our attempt to improve King Street. Simple things can make a big difference, as others have mentioned. I think we'd notice an immediate improvement with a well-enforced, rush-hour ban on parking, left turns, deliveries, and vehicles in the streetcar lane. For cyclists: Reduce the speed limit to 30-ish kph, paint sharrows in the centre of the curb lanes, and ticket aggressive drivers and cyclists - aggressively. For the pedestrian realm: Attractive paving, Silva cells and a good tree canopy, similar to the new waterfront. Compared to many great walking streets, King seems to have a sufficient quantity of sidewalk space; the main difference is the quality.

Much of this could be done quite quickly and cheaply as a pilot project (except maybe the sidewalk improvements).

I kinda see what you're saying. And as Toronto becomes more and more wealthy it's fun to keep an eye out for ultra high-end exotic cars (that usu can be heard from a few blocks away). Lambos, McLarens, Ferraris, etc, but I guess not everyone cares about that. And it's interesting to note that one of the pro-Jane Jacobs / anti Le Corbusier tenets is that streets should be open to all (including car users). But still, Toronto desperately needs a few grand pedestrian malls in/around downtown. Or at least a significant attempt at reducing traffic lanes and expanding ultra-narrow sidewalks cluttered with street furniture (that oftentimes can't handle the loads on an avg day, let alone at very peak times such as during festivals or after major events). This wouldn't even really be an "experiment" to draw people in that aren't otherwise there - they're already there, and marginalized on sidewalks where you can't walk two abreast and carry a conversation because it's too packed.

One thing I'd really like to see though for certain new developments (such as parts of the eastern waterfront) is an attempt at recreating what exists on Toronto Islands. Basically an area that is 100% car-free (with the exception of service/emergency vehicles). No one lane streets, or woonerfs. But an area where no cars go, period.

 

[Forgotten]

Nobody justifies a Queen subway by saying King is dead outside business hours. The rationale has always been the cost of digging under King street, and the fact that a Queen alignment is just as good. Both make perfect sense as long as one gets built but insisting on a King subway as if it is the only right choice is just a waste of time. It simply doesn't have the huge advantage people claim. On the other hand, some do make the unconvincing argument that a king subway can serve waterfront, Exhibition and CityPlace.

Nobody said it's dead outside business hours? Try telling the people that actually said that in the thread. Planning report on the subway even went on in the same vein. Go on and keep repeating cost but nothing in published documents backs you up, they actually say otherwise. They've already implied stations on Queen will be much deeper and left unsaid the higher costs that will follow that.

 

[MisterF]

The EU gives Poland about E4 billion (Cdn$6b) A YEAR in funding for these projects. So not cash strapped at all for transit.

I don't think it's fair to compare any European city and their transit malls. A) The EU funds which Poland disproportionately benefits from cannot be replicated here (we're the ones sending our money elsewhere for development).. B) Even Belgrade, the capital of a non-EU city, spends large amounts of money for these types of projects - however, look at a map of both cities. The entire Belgrade urban area could comfortably fit within the confines of old Toronto. And by that I mean the entire city.. Outside of that there are farms. That's 2 million people in an area significantly smaller than old Toronto - not the new megacity.

There are far fewer streets to maintain hence the budget being spent on public realm, transit malls, etc.

Poland has a per capita GDP (PPP) of $27,000. In Canada it's $45,000. Using nominal GDP the difference is even more stark. Adding $6 billion to Poland's economy every year is barely a drop in the bucket and doesn't even come close to making up the difference between the wealth of the two countries. EU cash is no excuse for the state of Toronto's streetscapes or the lack of a King Street transit mall. It's simply choices that we make with the money, no more and no less. Besides, it's not we're talking outrageous sums of money to do this, especially compared to the benefit.

 

[DSC]

Moving on...

Request for Proposal

Call number: 9119-16-7149
Commodity: Professional Services, Consulting Services
Description: King Street Modelling Study
PURPOSE

The purpose of this RFP is to retain a team of consultants with expertise in the microsimulation of transit and traffic operations to support technical analysis in the TOcore King Street Visioning Study and along the greater King Street corridor. The Vendor will prepare a modelling study to determine a preferred approach to prioritize the efficient movement of transit vehicles along King Street and the Toronto Transit Commission's 504 King streetcar route with significant public realm improvements and place-making initiatives within the TOcore King Street Visioning Study area, while considering the potential impacts to other road users. The study will need to take into account the many needs of King Street and other downtown streets, including loading and deliveries, high transit ridership and high traffic volumes.

The Solution shall include recommendation of physical modifications, operational changes, and other measures to King Street that would improve the speed and reliability of streetcar service through the King Street Visioning Study area and along the greater King Street corridor. Recommendations from this study shall inform the scope of the pilot project on King Street in 2017. Of equal importance, the Solution will provide a transformational change to the public realm along King Street, rethinking the role and function of King Street as both a place and a transportation corridor. The Vendor will conduct microsimulation analysis on a range of operational scenarios which will be a key input into the evaluation of the enhanced transit priority and public realm improvements proposed through the TOcore King Street Visioning Study. The Vendor will model alternative scenarios developed by the City, TTC and the consultant team retained through the TOcore King Street Visioning Study. Analysis will show local and broader network impacts on transit and general traffic with operational and public realm changes to King Street. Broader network effects will include traffic on parallel streets, pedestrian and cycling movements, connections and safety. Longer-term and more extensive changes, such as new rapid transit lines, are beyond the immediate scope of this study.
Issue date: July 7, 2016

Closing date: July 29, 2016
at 12:00 Noon
Notes: Viewing Copy

9119-16-7149 Viewing Copy (2).pdf (880 Kbytes) - Posted on 07/07/2016 03:04:39 PM

 

[muller877]

I was driving along King Street this morning and found something somewhat encouraging...then disappointing.

The encouraging part...there was a police officer waiting on a side street to catch any person driving past a streetcar with its doors open. (a minor stop between Jamison and Dufferin)

The disappointing...
1. He did not stop a bike who blew through while people were unloading
2. The streetcar operator closed his back doors, then 1/2 closed his front doors and then paused for at least 5 seconds. The car that was first in line started driving slowly and the cop stopped him. It was almost (or was) entrapment.

Fully support what the officer is doing but the streetcar operator was just being a jerk. Don't try to entrap...there are enough people that disobey the law without needing to do this stuff.

 

[WislaHD]

I wonder if this Transit Mall has any chance of surviving the 2018 election?

With Tory becoming Ford-lite, it has me worried.