Humber Bay Shores

[taal]

The 'Lakeshore' already has a vibrant retail strip to the west, stretching from ~Park Lawn to Long Branch. Yes, this is primarily a bedroom community and will continue being such. Westlake does provide more a city centre feel with its generous retail, but the real heart will be whenever Mr. Christie's gets redeveloped. I easily see it becoming a Shops of Don Mills sort of property.

Realistically there is very little developable space for the 'core' you're envisioning. A thin strip of land bound by Lake Shore Blvd and Marine Parade won't cut it.

Quite the contrary, I believe there is plenty of space; Or should I say, there was plenty of space, if you step back about 10/15 years ago. Hence the "it's likely already too late argument".

Westlake is nice but really it would only make up a small part of a dense city center feel (don't think downtown, think downtown Markham), and it's neighbors won't contribute much too this.

Now if you vision for Mr. Christie's does eventually become reality I think a core could be established and that would be ideal, at least in my books. But at the same time my original post was also a question to a certain degree. Maybe there's nothing wrong with a bed room community here. To me there is plenty wrong, I would chose downtown Markham over this (or at least the potential that exists there, it may never become reality); But maybe others wouldn't, and that's OK too.

 

[taal]

Humber Bay Shores is a missed opportunity in many ways however, it's also the prime location for the resort type atmosphere it is developing. In an ideal world, every community would have its share of commercial space beyond some token retail however, with the demand for larger floor plates and ever shrinking workstations , it's impractical.

I've noticed over the many years a common misconception that a balanced ratio between commercial towers and residential towers should be near 1:1 when in fact one office tower can actually house the residents from a dozen or more condo towers.

We can actually due the math on this one and prove you're correct, though not by as much as you think.
I would say on average the square feet per employee in a typical office building is around 150. Likely around 500 or so when it comes to your typical condo, so it doesn't scale quite as easily (the more people, the less space per person on average). But the argument regarding large floor plates also needs to factor in, as it's true. So this requires, at least ideally, more land.
What would you say the average

 

[Filip]

Quite the contrary, I believe there is plenty of space; Or should I say, there was plenty of space, if you step back about 10/15 years ago. Hence the "it's likely already too late argument".

Westlake is nice but really it would only make up a small part of a dense city center feel (don't think downtown, think downtown Markham), and it's neighbors won't contribute much too this.

Now if you vision for Mr. Christie's does eventually become reality I think a core could be established and that would be ideal, at least in my books. But at the same time my original post was also a question to a certain degree. Maybe there's nothing wrong with a bed room community here. To me there is plenty wrong, I would chose downtown Markham over this (or at least the potential that exists there, it may never become reality); But maybe others wouldn't, and that's OK too.

Also, the biggest reason why this is far more interesting and successful than downtown (read stucco monstrosity) Markham is its proximity to downtown. Why have oodles of office/retail space when the real downtown core is a five minute drive away? I just drove a friend home (Harbourfront area) and it took me a total of 13 mins for the entire trip. It also helps when there's no traffic; but realistically, even in traffic, never took me more than 15-20 mins unless there was a serious accident.

 

[taal]

Also, the biggest reason why this is far more interesting and successful than downtown (read stucco monstrosity) Markham is its proximity to downtown. Why have oodles of office/retail space when the real downtown core is a five minute drive away? I just drove a friend home (Harbourfront area) and it took me a total of 13 mins for the entire trip. It also helps when there's no traffic; but realistically, even in traffic, never took me more than 15-20 mins unless there was a serious accident.

I don't mind that argument to a certain degree but I wonder if that will be the downfall of all our inner suburbs, less the already established ones.

So let me touch on downtown Markham, I tend not to dabble into the architecture and focus on the built form, at least in regards to conversations like these. Secondly, downtown Markham has a lot of office space planned for it. They could have taken the easy route out though, as the 404/407 corridor has around 8 million square feet of space, it's larger then NYCC. Yet the plans are to build even more so a mixed use community could be built.

Unfortunately this is where planning steps out and politics steps in, Markham can say it wants to add 2/3 million square feet of space and likely accomplish it eventually. The outer suburbs of Toronto, including this area, don't have this luxury. Simply put no one will build offices away from the core and maybe, but with a lot of difficulty, NYCC or Y&E.

 

[Filip]

I still fail to see how lots of pretty renderings a la downtown Markham will ever amount to anything more than just pretty renderings. A few weeks ago, someone posted pictures on UT of a completed project in the area. Looked nothing like the rendering, including the convenient removal of all ground floor retail. Everything in 'downtown' Markham will be car-centric and removed. High streets will fail to materialize and everyone will continue driving to their big box stores to do all their shopping conveniently. The office space (as in a recently completed project) already provides generous surface parking so I fail to see how this area even dares be called 'downtown' anything.. It is Markham so I'll let it slide.

-- Hideous, ground floor retail removed, and what appears to be a 6 lane road next to it. I don't know about you, but I'm getting more of a downtown vibe from the resort Humber Bay Shores.

Humber Bay Shores has the luxury of being next to a series of established lakefront communities. Eventually these areas will gentrify and provide the high street and employment you so crave (Mimico has already started). Given that there is a serious amount of developable land between Mr. Christie's and the Ontario Food Terminal, I think your dream for a core is eventually going to come true.

In fact, it was just a few days ago I was discussing with a fellow Mimicoer that the bakery/food terminal lands could easily be developed into a transit/shopping hub. Imagine a retail centre anchored on both sides of the railway/Gardiner. Both are on a berm, therefore tunnel a series of pathways under it, including a GO station integrated into the development, tying in with Humber loop. You can fit thousands of condo units and probably a generous amount of office space (5-10 storey buildings) all around the site. The owners must be salivating at the cost they could sell all that land at.

 

[canarob]

I still fail to see how lots of pretty renderings a la downtown Markham will ever amount to anything more than just pretty renderings. A few weeks ago, someone posted pictures on UT of a completed project in the area. Looked nothing like the rendering, including the convenient removal of all ground floor retail.

I don't think the first phase of Downtown Markham was ever supposed to have retail. It looks like there is a patio of sorts in this rendering, so perhaps it was a bit misleading:

Everything in 'downtown' Markham will be car-centric and removed. High streets will fail to materialize and everyone will continue driving to their big box stores to do all their shopping conveniently.

They've only started building the retail components, so let's wait and see.

The office space (as in a recently completed project) already provides generous surface parking so I fail to see how this area even dares be called 'downtown' anything

The plan is to build over most of the surface parking once new office buildings are constructed.

what appears to be a 6 lane road next to it. I don't know about you, but I'm getting more of a downtown vibe from the resort Humber Bay Shores.

It's a four-lane road, although I think there are extra turn lanes near intersections. Also, Markham deserves credit for building a dedicated bus "rapidway" through the entire entire. That's still pretty unique in the GTA.

What you you see directly in front of the buildings in your photo is actually the rapidway.

 

[taal]

I still fail to see how lots of pretty renderings a la downtown Markham will ever amount to anything more than just pretty renderings ...

Sorry Filip, but it's very clear you're not aware of the details behind this project. I find it rather strange your so quick to judge something you're not that informed about.

The poster above shed some light. There was never any retail in the first phase. All the parking will eventually disappear, sooner then later.

To date the development has essentially matched those renderings. This development, which isn't that big, will indeed feature about 1 million square feet of retail, that's essentially the size of a mall! Much more commercial space as well.

 

[taal]

In fact, it was just a few days ago I was discussing with a fellow Mimicoer that the bakery/food terminal lands could easily be developed into a transit/shopping hub. Imagine a retail centre anchored on both sides of the railway/Gardiner. Both are on a berm, therefore tunnel a series of pathways under it, including a GO station integrated into the development, tying in with Humber loop. You can fit thousands of condo units and probably a generous amount of office space (5-10 storey buildings) all around the site. The owners must be salivating at the cost they could sell all that land at.

So essentially something like downtown markham, great, that sounds perfect

Here's the problem. You'll NEVER see office space materialize, that's a political thing I as touching on a while back. The retail sure, and that's the best we can hope for really.

 

[Filip]

I don't think the first phase of Downtown Markham was ever supposed to have retail. It looks like there is a patio of sorts in this rendering, so perhaps it was a bit misleading:

They've only started building the retail components, so let's wait and see.



The plan is to build over most of the surface parking once new office buildings are constructed.



It's a four-lane road, although I think there are extra turn lanes near intersections. Also, Markham deserves credit for building a dedicated bus "rapidway" through the entire entire. That's still pretty unique in the GTA.

What you you see directly in front of the buildings in your photo is actually the rapidway.

'Plan' is always significantly different than 'reality' in Toronto. 'Downtown' Markham will just look like a pile of stucco crap thrown about randomly in some God forsaken corner of the GTA. I don't see that million sqf of retail materializing, and certainly not the loss of surface parking. I doubt I'll be eating my words in 5-10 years.

 

[Filip]

So essentially something like downtown markham, great, that sounds perfect

Here's the problem. You'll NEVER see office space materialize, that's a political thing I as touching on a while back. The retail sure, and that's the best we can hope for really.

Really? Let's wait and see. Convenient access to GO Transit, highway and downtown for a lower sqft price could potentially attract a whole boatload of tenants that can't afford downtown prices.

 

[taal]

Really? Let's wait and see. Convenient access to GO Transit, highway and downtown for a lower sqft price could potentially attract a whole boatload of tenants that can't afford downtown prices.

Simply put have you heard of a single office project outside of the core in the last decade or so. There has been 1 as far as I'm aware, and that is the office in in NYCC.
Throughout this time many many offices have went up throughout the 905, include Markham along Hi-way 7.

It's extremely unfortunate but seems like the reality we live in for whatever reason.

 

[junctionist]

There has been some talk about Mr. Christie's being redeveloped for a vibrant 'core' area with new condos and office space. But without local rapid transit, it may not work out. ECC on the subway is a logical core for Etobicoke. It's odd to hear ideas of replacing Christie Bakeries with office space for a mixed-use area. Isn't Christie already a major source of employment? New Toronto still has a lot of industry too. Perhaps the city should push for more affordable housing within the Humber Bay developments to give workers a chance to live within walking distance of their place of employment, a valid strategy for creating the conditions for a successful neighbourhood like diversity of residents and businesses. ECC can be turned around, but Etobicoke residents have to demand more ambitious city building projects.

 

[adma]

Come to think of it, if Christie is to go, has there ever been talk of the Ontario Food Terminal moving?

 

[Filip]

Come to think of it, if Christie is to go, has there ever been talk of the Ontario Food Terminal moving?

Probably. I never understood the cachet for those two uses to stay where they are. Both heavily rely on cartage, and the sites are surrounded (or soon to be) by high-density residential development. Traffic is bad and hauling that many trucks up and down the streets isn't going to fly well with the thousands of new residents.

They're better suited somewhere on the edge of the 416 or GTA.

 

[adma]

And of course, remember that the east end (the Oshawa/IGA facilities) of the Ontario Food Terminal ensemble was swept away for bigboxtopia in the last decade. It'd only be "rational" if the rest followed suit...