Toronto Hullmark Centre | 167.94m | 45s | Tridel | Kirkor Architects

[waterloowarrior]

Oh that's right,... Tridel Hullmark Centre is exercising the allowable 33% density incentive,... allowing a max of 5.985 FSI. Thus instead of using 102,900 square metre (based on 4.5 FSI) the Tridel Hullmark Centre site can accommodate 33% more office space for a total of about 136,857 square metre. Thus, the current proposal with 18,580 square metre of office space only account for about 13.6% of the possible office space the Tridel Hullmark Centre lot can accommodate,... under 5.985 FSI after getting extra 33% density incentive.

102,900 sq m / 15,179.4 sq m (site area) = 6.8 FSI.
136,857 sq m / 15,179.4 sq m (site area) = 9.0 FSI

 

[ProjectEnd]

/\ Don't take the bait! Please!

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

102,900 sq m / 15,179.4 sq m (site area) = 6.8 FSI.
136,857 sq m / 15,179.4 sq m (site area) = 9.0 FSI

Thanks, WaterlooWarrior,... I stand corrected. Apparently, I'm out of step.

68,307.3 sq m / 15,179.4 sq m (site area) = 4.5 FSI.
Under 4.5 FSI, Tridel Hullmark Centre's proposed 18,580 square metre (200,000 square feet) of office space is 27.2% of potential for this site.

90,848.7 sq m / 15,179.4 sq m (site area) = 5.985 FSI
Under 5.985 FSI, Tridel Hullmark Centre's proposed 18,580 square metre (200,000 square feet) of office space is 20.4% of potential for this site.

 

[ProjectEnd]

sunnyray is right about one thing - the North York canyon is starting to look impressive.

But it would be that much better with these...

Riiiight about here...

Nice sales center too!

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

No!!!!

Hmmm,... interesting,... they already took down the Tridel Hullmark Centre billboard advertisement that was on top of the plaza. Seems like at the beginning fo the month they just replaced it with new advertisement.

While you were in the neighbourhood, did you walk around both the Tridel Hullmark Centre and Nestle office building lots to double check my calculations?

I think the main reason my initial numbers were off,... was because I assumed Nestle building lot is 4.5FSI as listed on current city zoning diagram. The 21 storey Nestle Building is about 35,000 square metres,... but it's 35,000 square metres twin tower was never built. Could you imagine how dense that Nestle lot would be with both Nestle building and it's twin tower,... probably more than 4.5 FSI,... probably closer to 5.985FSI. They probably did a some density transfer and "incentives" to get a higher density. And since you were in the neighbourhood, you probably noticed the little parklette just west of the Nestle building on the other side of Beecroft Road. As I recall there was some renovation (water fountain, gardens, pergola, etc,..) to that park around the time the Nestle building went up in the mid 90's,... I can't recall what exactly used to be at that park space before, thus it's possible that the entire park was "donated" to the city. I do recall prior to the Nestle building there was a 1 storey Bank of Montreal branch there,.... I thought it was a bit odd because there was a lot of space between the bank and Yonge Street and the building itself was very cold looking,... lots of cement and very flat and wide.

But since the second tower was never built, the city never had to update the density zoning for that lot.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Regarding the city of Toronto and improving transportation. What exactly do you suggest - I'd argue Yonge and Finch/Sheppard are some of the best connected locals in all of Toronto. With access to GO 2 subway lines - YRT, brampton ... Moreover, it's surrounded by some of the busiest and more frequent bus routes in all of Toronto (39, 36, 60, 53)

Before amalgamation, there was basically one office building & one condo building built almost every year in downtown North York core,... And back then, this was a real downtown,... net migration of people coming into the area for work in the morning.

Since 1998 amalgamation,... we saw 45-50 condos and only one new office building built in downtown North York core,.... now, it's net migration of people out every morning,... this isn't a real downtown,... it's a vertical "sleeping community" suburb.

After amalgamation, we just don't have politicians fighting for North York like they used to,... we still have some of the same (old) politicians around but they're now fighting for Toronto, not North York,... nobody is fighting for North York. Before amalgamation, North York was aggressive in getting all those office buildings built in North York, and North York was eating Toronto's lunch! Now, its the 905 that's eating the amalgamated Toronto's (and North York's) lunch!

North York's office scene will never ever be comparible to that of downtown Toronto's. Sure downtown North York has subway, regional bus transit system, highway (401),.... basically same ingredients as downtown Toronto. But North York doesn't have GO Train service,....real GO train service (not that Richmond Hill line to IKEA),.... downtown Toronto has GO Train service to Union station,... it brings in people (talent) from a much greater geographical area,... thus the professional talent pool that a downtown Toronto office can reach is much further than that of a downtown North York office.

Transit-wise,... the downtown North York area is the geographical centre of the GTA, so it deserves a great transit network,... do we have that? It could be a lot better. Of course, we'll never get GO Train running through downtown North York,... but the Sheppard Subway line should be extended in both direction, westward to Downsview for subway line network interoperability and eastward to Scarborough Town Centre. This will help Scarborough residents and relieve pressure off Bloor-Yonge subway interchange.

And while, we're talking subway,... extending Spadina line to Vaughan Corporate Centre??? (land of big box stores) and extending Yonge line to Richmond Hill Centre are big mistakes! Extending subway lines to low density areas in 905 at the cost of extending subway line to higher density areas in Toronto is a costly mistake and it'll cost Toronto residents dearly. Subway extension to 905 areas that are developing their own downtowns with offices will cost Toronto office development and good jobs within Toronto.

Back to downtown North York,... once the service ring road is complete they should have a bus route going around the ring road. And they should get rid of that Yonge 97 bus,... it only runs every 30 minutes and if there are actually passengers on it, I can count them on one hand,.. and that's during rush hour! It's rediculous to have a bus route on top of a subway line.

You say people aren't working in the area, where are they working? I don't see what improved transit we can offer. The traffic issue your concerned about is Yonge south of Sheppard, in other words it's the 401 W/E.

I'm concerned about traffic in the Yonge-Sheppard-401 area because that's the where Tridel Hullmark Centre site is and that's the main area the city of Toronto is focusing their traffic study on. Its a huge bottle neck! The 401 is really a huge wall,... it only has openings every 2km or so,... you're north of 401 and have to go south of it,... those small north-south side streets don't have bridges or tunnels crossing the 401!,... you need to get to Leslie or Bayview or Yonge or Bathurst, or Allen Rd or Dufferin,... basically every 2 km. At Yonge, the 401 overpass built in 1950s only has a 6 lane hole for cars, actually only 4 lanes when you take away the on-ramp lanes,... this is the bottle neck,... it can't be widen anymore,.. it service the downtown North York area (100-200m east & west of Yonge) and beyond (1km east & west of Yonge) which is the bottle,... in the last 11 years since amalgamation, the downtown North York area have seen 45-50 new high density residential condo towers jammed into this bottle!!! And these people work everywhere,... but if they're going to downtown Toronto core, best to use subway. Anywhere else south, they drive on Yonge south of Sheppard to 401,... they go anywhere more than a stone throw east or west, they go to 401,... and they'll need to go on Yonge south of Sheppard to 401. Even those going to generally north to Markham, Vaughan or Brampton opt to take 401,..

Take Yonge southbound train during AM rush,... you'll see it's pretty packed by the time it leaves Sheppard-Yonge,... a lot fuller than northbound Yonge train. Stand at Yonge & Sheppard during AM rush,... you'll see more cars leaving the area than coming in,... net migration out.

Well, there's traffic issues at Yonge-Finch as well,... you mention regional bus, they all go to Finch station,... during AM Peak there's 370 buses going southbound from Steeles Ave to Finch station,... about half are YRT and Viva buses,... clogging up Yonge Subway line. And vast majority of these passengers are going to downtown Toronto. They could just as well use Downsview station,.. on the Spadina-University subway line,.... most downtown destination is better served by University line anyways. Instead of talking about Bus express lanes on Yonge north of Finch,... they should be talking about Bus Only Express lanes on Dufferin from Downsview Station to Steeles and beyond. This fall York University Red Rocket 106 bus will have new Bus only lanes on Dufferin between Downsview Station and Finch hydro corridor. York Region is now expanding Dufferin Street north of Dufferin from 2 lanes in each direction to 3 lanes in each direction,.... but there's that little 1.5km stretch of Dufferin between Finch Hydro Corridor and Steeles that's only 2 lanes in each direction,... city of Toronto won't expand it to 3 lanes in both direction. The local city councillor of that ward, we won't mention any names but his initials are H.M.,... is against widening Dufferin Street,... he doesn't want to do anything that would benefit 905ers! It's like, come on widen that 1.5km of Dufferin Street and put in bus only lanes,.... so YRT and Viva (about 4,000 passengers per hour during AM rush) can use Downsview Station on 66% capacity Spadina subway line (20,000 southbound passenger per hour during AM rush) instead of dumping all their buses at Finch Station and clogging 100% full capacity Yonge Subway line (30,000 southbound passenger per hour during AM rush),.... this will actually benefit midtown Toronto Yonge subway riders who are stuck on platform as packed southbound train passes by during AM rush,... come on H.M., you're the former TTC chair, geez! Why are York Region Transit riders whose property tax does NOT finacially support TTC be given first class service on Yonge Subway when midtown Toronto resident's whose property tax actually does financially support TTC be forced to wait on southbound platform as packed subway train passes by during AM rush?

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

It's really not the cities place to decide when office towers go up - I've had this debate before but for the life of me I personally don't understand why the demand for office space in NYCC isn't astronomically higher. It should beet out anywhere on Hi-Way 7 and Missi/airport. If it comes down to a tax issue that's a Toronto wide problem that needs to be addressed.

There is a significant office compontent in the Hullmark development.

True,... it's not the city's place to decide when office towers go up,... but its certainly within the city's right to decide where office towers go up and where residential condo towers go up.

See my previous post,... the proposed office space of Tridel Hullmark Centre is only 20.4% of the potential for that site. I would hardly consider it significant.

The city of Toronto have higher commercial office tax rates to subsidize lower residential tax,... residents vote, offices don't. Anyways, the city of Toronto recently started giving tax rebates for desirable developments like office buildings,... give it a chance to work. There's already about 4 new office developments in downtown Toronto. Even if Tridel Hullmark Centre can't see developing all that site as office all at once,.. then develop it piece by piece,... like Nestle building across the street.

Also just to clarify, I think you'll find even if there were more office buildings the demand for condos would be that much higher and you really wouldn't see much in terms of reduced traffic. NYCC is a deriable place to live even for those working far away.

With more offices in downtown North York,... those TTC subway riders on half empty northbound trains aren't clashing with riders on full southbound trains,.... those cars driving into North York centre aren't clogging traffic for those in gridlock traffic driving out,.. which is currently the net migration of traffic going out. It'll balance the net flow,... and with more offices, more local residents will have the opportunity to work closer to home and won't need to drive at all to work.

So finally, I'll end with a question - given the above, you really would prefer NO development take place correct? As I said even, if it was a 30 story office building it's still likely to demand as much out of area, contributing to the traffic problem proportionately

I don't have a problem with development,... as long as its the right ones, for the area and people who live there. And I see major all office as the right development for a Yonge & Sheppard corner site with direct subway access. I don't have a problem with the city of Toronto's urban plan for the area,... so I generally agree with them.

A 30 storey office building will certainly add more traffic to the area, but it'll be adding more AM inbound traffic to the area,... and not adding AM outbound traffic which is the major problem we have here during AM rush. Another residential condo development on land destined for office use will certainly be adding to AM outbound traffic gridlock problems.

Its about balancing the number of offices and condos in the area,... right now, with all the 45-50 condo towers that's gone up since amalgamation vs one office tower in that same time period,... this area desperately need more office towers. And lands that the city have zoned for office buildings at key intersections like Yonge & Sheppard should NOT be given up for residential condos.

 

[Solaris]

City Planning OMB Hearing Status Report

looks like this one is going ahead ~

Staff report recommending accepting the Settlement Offer to be considered by North York Community Council on April 21, 2009, thereby approving the proposal containing:

• 44-storey north tower contains an 11-storey office component and residential uses above that level
• 35-storey south tower contains retail uses at the ground floor and residential uses above
• 5-storey link building would include office space, retail uses and amenity space for the two residential towers
• Retail and service commercial uses are proposed at grade level along the Yonge Street and future Anndale Drive frontages
• The proposed development includes two new pedestrian connections to the Yonge/Sheppard TTC subway

OMB Hearing Status Report: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2009/ny/bgrd/backgroundfile-20122.pdf

Settlement Offer: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2009/ny/bgrd/backgroundfile-20123.pdf

**floorplates are shown in the last couple pages of this attachment

 

[cdr108]

YES ... finally, the end of the constant debate !

Keep it in the Bazi's Emerald thread.

 

[Solaris]

YES ... finally, the end of the constant debate !

Keep it in the Bazi's Emerald thread.

not sure if I follow you cdr108 ... are you referring to my post above? If so that post relates to Hullmark Centre

 

[Automation Gallery]

44 storey 173 meters high, this will be North Yorks tallest building if built. Many of the 100 meter crowd will not be to happy with this OMB decision, this project getting approved at this height just might facilitate Bazis-Emerald and Gibson Square keeping their original proposed heights, which is quite a bit over the 100 meter cap.

 

[cdr108]

not sure if I follow you cdr108 ... are you referring to my post above? If so that post relates to Hullmark Centre

sorry Solaris, ... no, my comments were related to sunnyraytoronto's ongoing repetitive posts about this corner, especially his issues with Bazis.

 

[HDLtd]

44 storey 173 meters high, this will be North Yorks tallest building if built. Many of the 100 meter crowd will not be to happy with this OMB decision, this project getting approved at this height just might facilitate Bazis-Emerald and Gibson Square keeping their original proposed heights, which is quite a bit over the 100 meter cap.

I don't think this is an OMB decision, it is a negotiated settlement with the city.

 

[DaninToronto]

44 storey 173 meters high, this will be North Yorks tallest building if built. Many of the 100 meter crowd will not be to happy with this OMB decision, this project getting approved at this height just might facilitate Bazis-Emerald and Gibson Square keeping their original proposed heights, which is quite a bit over the 100 meter cap.

Where did you see the stats on the height automation? I cant seem to find it in the report as I want to update the ongoing list of proposals for this site.

Thanks.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Where did you see the stats on the height automation? I cant seem to find it in the report as I want to update the ongoing list of proposals for this site.

Thanks.

It has been posted as a proposed Toronto building on Skyscrapercity for quite some time at that height, i think the other phases are also posted, i dont know how accurate that information is but they seem to be pretty good on posting correct project heights. Should be close considering this 44 storey mixed-use tower development has 10 storeys of office.

Oh i just found this PDF, http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2007/ny/bgrd/backgroundfile-453.pdf actually it states that the north tower is proposed for 177 meters.