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High Speed Rail: London - Kitchener-Waterloo - Pearson Airport - Toronto

My feeling is it is actually probably cheaper to just expropriate through Guelph & not even build a station in Guelph. ("You want the trains to stop? Fund your own upgraded train station. Good luck.") Certainly, that will make Guelphites madder than a hive of hornets, feeling blackmailed.
"Expropriate through Guelph"? And run the train through at 200kph?

Errr...no. The default option now stated by a number of sources is to bypass not only Guelph, but Crackton and other other constrictions until Georgetown. Brampton remains problematic too. You and other predicate your view on the premise that there's a pressing need for Guelphites to want High Speed Rail to...wherever. They don't, with few exceptions. They want *HFR*!
K/W and London, if there's a concentration of desire, want HSR. It was an election sop that the Libs just won't be able to deliver on. Even Liz Sandals, Lib MPP Cabinet Minister, has deflated the "Guelph wants HSR" issue. It's not planned to go through Guelph for good reason, if it ever happens at all. It is for "London, K/W, Pearson and Toronto"

The original plan prior to this one was to follow the 401. I thought that was pie-in-the-sky until realizing the costs of doing so would be less than "expropriating" the heart out of many locales populated by persons who don't want that. If there's a group in Guelph, besides the self-serving Board of Trade, that wants this, it's the population to the *south* of Guelph that drives on the 401 every day to Toronto. THAT is where the station, if there is to be one, should be.

Fritz the All-Knowing talks about London "building a station underwater" (I follow Crossrail very closely, and the associated politics, I have a vote there still let alone family, some of whom work in rail management)...but what the All-Knowing overlooks is that Crossrail is over 40% in tunnel.

Hey, what's a little blasting, eh?
 
Well aren't you just the authority on everything?
No ... but I am a hydrogeological engineer who has worked in Guelph. And given you are completely off base on the one subject where I have forgotten far more than you'll ever know, I can only assume you are talking out of your imagination for much of what else you say.

There's an aquifer that flows through there, there's many in Guelph.
Do you even know what an aquifer is? "flows through there"? The entire city is an aquifer.

I'm not surprised they encountered some groundwater that deep. But as you can see, it wasn't a show-stopper. And they didn't spend $millions to solve the problem.

Wazzup Fitz? No wonder you don't like factual information. It interferes with your rants. Having trouble accepting that the default route for Guelph is a by-pass?
What factual information? You've implied you can't go deeper with the tracks because of groundwater - which has to be one of the most absurd things I've ever read in 30-years professional work in the field. What supports this, apart of what you are pulling out of your imagination?

The biggest problem with the bypass, is there's no way you are going to be veering off the current alignment until just south of - and mostly likely west of Acton. The proposed alignment that veers off just west of Limehouse isn't feasible, given the massive gravel pit in the bedrock and exposed Niagara escarpment that is in the way, and would never be approved.

The ultimate proof that you are completely wrong, is that when you are challenged, you resort to name-calling. This only demonstrates just how weak your case is.
 
"Expropriate through Guelph"? And run the train through at 200kph?
I need to correct you because you misread my post.

Not THROUGH Guelph, but between Kitchener and Guelph, silly guy.

The train cannot go 200kph through.

I agree with you. But that is not what I said.

BUT it can sprint that fast in between if they were so inclined to upgrade the corridor to this spec, and grade separate. It is long enough and straight enough, for a brief 200kph sprint, if fully grade separated. Proximity to buildings is another matter altogether, but that is an expropriation matter.

I am not saying it is the best option.

The Bypass may end up better.

But what I am saying is just one of the many possible options, assuming it went completely grade-separated all the way.

What they wish to do with the corridor depends on what is the best outcome, economics, what the people want.

1. I have been on a GO train that accelerated to 145kph in less than half the straight-track-segment distance between Kitchener and the first Guelph curve.

2. EMUs accelerate faster.

3. Talk to train driver vegata_skyline how quickly he can accelerate a GO Train to 145kph from a standstill. (A good example would be a Niagara seasonal GO train that is running late, and has big stop spacing as it skips a few stops). You mig be surprised.

An EMU is able to get an 8-coach to almost 200kph not much more than the same track mileage a diesel loco can get a 12-coach to 145kph.

You have to realize the straight arrow trackage is more than 20 kilometers long. Assuming full grade separation, there are no curves preventing 200kph in the more-ruralish section between Kitchener and Guelph. The stop space between Kitchener and Guelph... is practially almost Toronto-to-Oakville where I routinely see 145kph on my GPS speedometer (Trains that go express between Union and Oakville). And the 145kph section is only in the parts closer to Oakville, the track limit is lower east of Etobicoke. That is on a DIESEL GO Train that kind of accelerates like a turtle. Kitchener-Guelph is far more than mathematically more than enough for a 200kph sprint and then slowing down and it routinely happens in Europe. (And: I daresay even faster, 240 or 300, but it would likely be a waste. It takes only 3 (partial throttle) or even 2 (full throttle) minutes for some EMUs to hit near 200 in just a few kilometers. HSR EMUs accelerate at 2.5km/s/s at the bottom end of the scale, tapering off. And you need safety margin before the Guelph curve to decelerate even with some defective brakes, following regulations, but the track available is plenty to permit a 200kph sprint, if it became HSR spec grade separated.

Obviously, this may not be the best routing,
Obviously, the bypass may be better,
Obviously, the speed is less through Kitchener and Guelph proper....
(You are right in all the above, and I never disagreed)

...but the fact is 200kph does happen in the middle portion of 20km track sections elsewhere in the world. (You are wrong)

And Kitchener-Guelph is a straight arrow track longer than 20km except for a (approximately) single-degree-ish faint S curve at Breslau that is no barrier to 200kph given appropriate camber. In fact, Google Earthing the route, that faint curve (already ginormous radius) can be increased in radius further if you don't mind cutting some trees in the forest around the westmost faint curve near Breslau. The only reasons trains run slow is the poor condition and lack of grade separations, and to a lesser extent, proximity to certain buildings. Which you need to solve for HSR anyway, no matter which route the track takes between Toronto and Kitchener.

Should it be done? Maybe, maybe not. But it's been done before.
 
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MD: Of course it's been done in cities, where houses don't have tracks at the end of their front yards.

Not THROUGH Guelph, but between Kitchener and Guelph, silly guy.
[...]
The train cannot go 200kph through.
Then how can you claim with a shorter route with far less curves, milder gradients, and no imposed slower speed limits that it wouldn't be faster?

Fitz writes:
but I am a hydrogeological engineer who has worked in Guelph.
Fascinating. I think you mean "an hydrogeologic..."
but whatever.
 
Under NO circumstance should Guelph get a station. This is suppose to be HIGH SPEED rail and the more stops, the slower it gets.
 
Under NO circumstance should Guelph get a station. This is suppose to be HIGH SPEED rail and the more stops, the slower it gets.
Even if it went through Guelph, they wouldn't stop.

....unless Guelph paid out of the wazoo -- and then only one or two per day would stop.
 
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Under NO circumstance should Guelph get a station. This is suppose to be HIGH SPEED rail and the more stops, the slower it gets.

Well, that's the theory, if you use a precise definition of "High Speed Rail". I will bet a box of donuts that as Collenette's consultation proceeds, what emerges is a political definition of HSR that looks a lot less like a TGV and more like a good proper quality regional rail service. Which we ought to have anyways, and which will in the taxpayers' eyes will be the higher spending priority. The rail pax advocates will cringe at seeing this labelled 'HSR', but no one else will object.

Hopefully we won't repeat the UPX mistake by building something sexy ahead of something with the most value to the most people. We are still waiting to see full hourly 2WAD GO service on the Weston Sub.

- Paul
 
So Ontario would build the first high speed train, where some trains didn't stop at local stations? As if ...
Damn right, there's GO RER and there's HSR. They'll actually end up on the same electric corridor, wherever that goes.

Theoretically, you may see Guelph where RER trains stop (as replacements of diesel GO trains) at the existing basic Guelph station -- while HSR trains go whoosh through to a future fancier KW HSR station.

At this time I really cannot see them building two separate electric corridors to Kitchener... They are going to have to pick a corridor. Bypass or through Guelph. Anything that successfully electrifies that 25 kilovolt overhead catenary (HSR, RER, both, whatever) beyond Brampton to KW is going to definitely also attract electrified RER (or equivalent) to Kitchener-Waterloo.

Given it's a RER+HSR package deal that may replace diesel GO trains... What's the right route option? That, I don't know.
 
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You can use any type of service severing every station along the route, but it will be the quality of service those stations will see.

If you are going to electrify the system from Kingston to Windsor, you use one system that can be use by different equipment as well service.

As I stated to Metrolinx in 2007 when asked about having more stations on line, "Yes you need more stations, but you need to a number of different type of service to server them as well the existing ones. They will range from milk run that service every station to point to point express only with various types of service between them."

If it is the goal to get people to use rail in place of cars, then you need to offer service of some sort to every stations even if its only 2 trains a day for worse case service. They could take a milk run train to X station where they can transfer to either a point to point run or a limit number of stops that will be faster to get the rider to where they want to go to in the first place.

You will find in Europe various types of HSR running from point to point to the point that maybe only haft the route, depending on the ridership.

Guelph is a bottle neck at this time for any type of service, even for freight trains as well. Until you deal with the bottle neck that will be very costly to do, you can only talk what type of service it could see as well bypassing it. Metrolinx can provide more service to KW/London once tracks are upgraded as well signals, but its time and money to do it.

Until the line is electrify, you will need diesel power trains either like we have today or a mixture of them and DMU's shorter length trains ranging from 3-8 cars, depending time of day.

The KW line between Bramalea and Georgetown "HAS" to be 4 tracks, with a flyunder to get from the south to the north side without interfering with CN trains. From Georgetown to KW/London/Windsors, you need 3 tracks with a passing sidings, using CN corridor, since CN has far less traffic on it these days and will have less impact on all parties. Again, time and money to upgrade the line for high speed.
 
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The KW line between Bramalea and Georgetown "HAS" to be 4 tracks, with a flyunder to get from the south to the north side without interfering with CN trains. From Georgetown to KW/London/Windsors, you need 3 tracks with a passing sidings, using CN corridor, since CN has far less traffic on it these days and will have less impact on all parties. Again, time and money to upgrade the line for high speed.
I think the Queen's Park Libs bit off far more than they have teeth to chew on this. I just can't see turning the northern mainline into HSR, there's far too many bottlenecks and glitches. For what it will cost to turn a pig's ear into a purse, they might as well admit that RER/HFR is what it is suited to, and even that's going to take a large investment, and it will take years, if ever.

As for HSR, the early visions of it sweeping along above the median on the 401 now make as much sense or more than re-purposing an alignment that is just not apt for doing so.

The HSR spiel is going to come back to haunt the Libs. It was an election sop that won't go away. Nice idea, where's the money? There's not enough money for regular rail services, let alone catering to the starry-eyed.
 
In the Guelph press today:
Beam me up Premier Scotty! Councillor thinks Star Trek-type transporter more likely than high-speed rail
But Mayor says Guelph has to get its foot in the door when it comes to possibly being part of province's high-speed rail plans
1
about 6 hours ago by: Tony Saxon

Guelph’s outdated rail crossings, not the will of city council, could be what prevents high-speed rail from coming to Guelph.

City council voted unanimously Monday night to support, at least in principle, the possibility of getting a high-speed rail stop in the city if and when the province builds a proposed high-speed line between Windsor and Pearson airport.

Skeptical Ward 3 councillor Phil Allt even went so far as to say that Guelph was more likely to get some form of “Star Trek-like” transporter system before it got high speed rail, given the physical limitations of Guelph’s rail infrastructure.

The province is currently seeking input on its plans for high-speed rail and city staff and members of the Guelph Chamber of Commerce met with provincial representatives in February to discuss Guelph’s desire to be part of the line when and if it gets built, which in a best-case scenario isn’t likely to be for another 15 years. They were told at that time the line would bypass Guelph.

But more recent discussions have opened the door to the possibility of a stop in Guelph.

Initial plans call for the high-speed rail system to have stops at Pearson International Airport, Waterloo, London and Windsor, bypassing Guelph, says a report to council by city staff.

“Recent discussions indicate that an alternative alignment through Guelph may be considered, depending, in part on City support,” reads the staff report.

The report was to get council’s backing to inform the province that Guelph wants in, which council did by a 13-0 vote.

But Allt and others have their doubts.

“It is far more likely that high speed rail will divert around Guelph,” Allt said.

“Let’s get up to 1950s and 1960s speed on that corridor,” Allt said.

Mayor Cam Guthrie rejected Allt’s comments.

“I’m pleased in the meetings I’ve had,” the Mayor said. “I think that many of the comments, councillor Allt, are not accurate.”

Guthrie said the city has to at least “get its foot in the door.”

Getting high speed rail in Guelph would require upgrades to several at-grade railway crossings in the city, where the rail line crosses roads at the same level as the road.

City staff said those crossings will eventually have to be upgraded anyway.

“Regardless of the final HSR alignment, the rail line will need to be upgraded at some point in the future for safety issues and compliance with recently introduced Transport Canada grade-crossing regulations,” the staff report says.

Earlier in the meeting, councillor Bob Bell said the city has to decide “if we want economic development or level crossings through town,” referring to the possibility of getting high speed rail to Guelph.

“We need to remove the impediment of level crossings and get in the game,” Bell said.

Monday's meeting was also a chance for council to discuss and formalize its wish list when it comes to upcoming Federal infrastructure funding being doled out.

The staff-prepared list, which the city would pay roughly $15 million and the Feds $45 million if everything got approved, is led by IMICO land remediation, a new snow disposal site, improvements to Metcalfe Street, transit vehicle and bus stop improvements and the rehabilitation of two storm water ponds.

"I don't want to jinx it, but the chances of us being 100 percent successful are likely not there," Deputy CAO Scott Stewart said of the wish list.
https://www.guelphtoday.com/local-n...-likely-than-high-speed-rail-in-guelph-307199
 
Here's more on the Guelph saga:
Note the CTC signals VIA has installed *exactly* in the path of an underpass if built:
silvercreek___Gallery.jpg


And the irony of posting "High Speed Trains"...
Guelph Mercury
By Jessica Lovell


One city councillor has questioned whether creating an underpass to link two sections of Silvercreek Parkway is a project worthy of an application for federal infrastructure money.

“I really believe that there are far more important projects that I’d like to see on the list,” Ward 3 councillor June Hofland said during a special council meeting Monday.

The $18-million project is the largest one on a list of a dozen projects city staff are recommending for federal funding applications under the first phase of Ottawa’s infrastructure funding initiative.

Connecting Silvercreek Parkway with a grade separation under the railway tracks that currently separate the two sections of the road would allow for development of the Lafarge lands, a city staff report noted.

But Hofland raised concerns about commitments that had to be met as part of the development project.

A proposal for a major commercial development on the former quarry lands was unveiled in 2005, but it ended up at the Ontario Municipal Board. An amended proposal was approved in 2009, but still no development has happened.

Hofland said she understood the underpass project was being pushed back until 2022, and that there were development charges involved that would have to be paid by the developer as part of the project costs.

Deputy CAO of infrastructure, development and enterprise Scott Stewart confirmed that there is a $1.6 million development charge component, but said the federal funding would allow the city to move the project forward.

But given that the project has already been delayed so long, Hofland wanted to know, on the off chance that the city’s request for infrastructure funding was granted, “what would happen to that funding if the project never proceeded?”

Regardless of the development, the underpass is a key part of local transportation, said Stewart.

“If growth never took place there, we’ve still got issue around transportation and getting around the city,” he said.

Hofland also questioned the shovel-readiness of the project, but was assured by city engineer Kealy Dedman that the city was prepared to move forward with the project.

If federal funding came through, “we would break ground by late 2016,” said Dedman.
[...]
Ward One councillor Bob Bell questioned why the Metcalfe Street reconstruction was on the list when it hadn’t previously appeared on the city’s capital budget forecast. But it was explained that the project likely showed up under the general heading of “local roads.”

Bell then asked why “active transportation infrastructure” projects didn’t show up on the list and suggested that these projects be included in the second phase of the federal infrastructure program.
[...]
Active transportation “will be in part of the choice menu in phase two,” he said.
http://www.guelphmercury.com/news-s...hts-bid-to-seek-federal-infrastructure-money/

Note that what's being proposed is an *underpass*! That confounds all the posters talking of trenching through there. It ain't gonna happen...
 

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