Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportation

[crackpott]

Not to put anyone through any hassle, but this board is a wealth of information. And in doing my 4th year thesis on Queen Street transportation options, I thought I'd see if anyone had any useful articles/statistics/anything else of use to me that they could link me to.

Specifically, I remember someone mentioning some sort of density map for the city of toronto. Is there an online version of this? If not, where should I be going to find it, and what should I be looking for?

I appreciate any help that anyone is willing to give.

Thanks,
Phil

 

[Degnaw]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

Thats the future one from: This Thread

 

[jeicow]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

^ That map is included as part of the Rapid Transit Expansion Study 2002 that can be found in fullhere. I can't open it right now (on dial-up and too lazy to wait), but if I remember correctly you'll likely find some information from that useful. If anything, it includes at least one other map like the one posted above that from '02 I believe.

 

[Chuck100]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

What program are you in?

 

[crackpott]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

Thanks for the help, guys. That map shall prove very useful. Any other helpful stuff anyone has?

I'm in the Urban Studies program.

 

[Brighter Hell]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

So according to the report:

-subways are only successful where there's enough density to support them.
-expansions in the last 30 years have been in low density areas and aren't successful.
-highest density areas without subways in 2021 will be downtown east and west. No new subway capacity proposed in those areas.
-other high density growth areas - Weston sub, Yonge corridor, Etobicoke lakeshore. No subway expansion proposed in those areas.
-subway proposed to MCC (through 5+ km of low density suburbia to get there, exactly the kind of growth criticized on page 3)
-YUS loop proposed to relieve Yonge. DRL not even mentioned, downtown subway expansion is dismissed because apparently GO is more appropriate, though it doesn't say why. For the life of me I can't see how an 8 km subway along Steeles could possibly be better for Yonge relief than a DRL.
-Better balance between residential and commercial downtown means there's no demand for subways there. WTF? But there's demand at Markham Rd and Sheppard??

Some pretty sketchy conclusions if you ask me.

 

[socialwoe]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

^ very valid points Hell. It's insipid people can justify running miles of subway through virtually nothing ahead of building a downtown line that'd serve hundreds of 000s a day :rolleyes .

subways are only successful where there's enough density to support them.

In response to the original post, Queen Street has enough density to support a subway easy, the area from Beech Ave to Ronchesvalles is extremely commercial (as evidenced in the RTES report >250 jobs/km²) even running through the heart of the CBD. This is surrounded of roughly 162,000 residents with a net increase of 20,000 housing units over the past decade. To the immediate west of Queen St there are major condo developments along the waterfront which even spurred talk of an alternative 'subway', not of the TTC, exclusively for South Etobicoke residents during the last municipal elections. The east has more commercial potential and great transit connections if a line were to run up an arterial road like Victoria Park reaching the Kingston Streetcar, GO, BD TTC line and could even run further north as a DRL alternative.

subway proposed to MCC (through 5+ km of low density suburbia to get there, exactly the kind of growth criticized on page 3)

Superflurous disaster in the making. One line to MCC would be less successful than lines to Long Branch (south of QEW), Sherway (mid-Sauga) and Renforth/Pearson (ACC, industrial employment centres north of 401/3. Better GO, express routing to borderline subways should be looked at first.

For the life of me I can't see how an 8 km subway along Steeles could possibly be better for Yonge relief than a DRL.

Sheppard if extended both ways would alleviate Yonge somewhat to not warrant a Steeles Loop (although this would more likely be a Hwy 7 loop only the Promenade could justify).

Better balance between residential and commercial downtown means there's no demand for subways there. WTF? But there's demand at Markham Rd and Sheppard??

There is, like I said in another post the Sheppard-Markham neighbourhood is the second largest employment zone in Scarbourough after STC and landlocked Malvern/Zoo nearby houses 60,000 residents. However I wholeheartedly agree a downtown subway is needed long before most suburban extensions (Yonge to Steeles, BD to Sherway the exceptions).

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

Of course, those Markham & Sheppard figures socialwoe's talking about include STC...

 

[CSW]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

One of the most heavily document facilitators to successful transit-oriented development and intensification has been reliable transit that links two or more "desintations". Destinations need to have a mix of uses that include major employment centres (more then 40,000 jobs), institutional uses (hospitals, civic centres, musuems, universities, etc), major retail and shopping centres, and high density residential. The problems noted by Brighter Hall allude to this this fact. Density is key but destinations are just as important. Sheppard can only be a success if it has bi-directional, off-peak hour transit flow, meaning it has to link NYCC and STC and all the major employment, residential and other hubs inbetween. No amount of intensification along the Sheppard stub will have the same effect as creating a meaningful transit service.

Similarily, extending the Spadina line to York (or even Vaughn) will have the same effect. York is a major destination for a number of riders and it will improve the viability of the Spadina line as it will link a major destination (the university) and a potential major employment centre (VCC - if this ever takes off) to Yorkville, UofT, Downtown, etc.

The idea of extending to MCC is far fetched but not completely dumbfounded if service were to include rocket-services where trains by-passed several Bloor West stops before entering the downtown. For example, a train leaving MCC should be an express train entering 5 ot 6 stations in the 'saga and then be express to Landsdowne or something like, perhaps with period stops at Kipling, Royal York and Jane to make the service viable with normal, non-express trains. If they could change the service through the low-density areas then a subway to MCC could effectively link two or more major destinations and influence bi-directional flow. Intensification would likely follow in Etobicoke Centre, MCC and Yorkville as planned in the "Growth Plan for the GGH" under Places to Grow.

Responding to the YUS loop idea, this concept seems destined to fail due the institutional and political barriers of coordinating between the many public sector actors (TTC, York Regional Transit, York Region, City of Vaughn, City of Toronto, Richmond Hill, Government of Ontario and all their planning, land use and transit arms.. not to mention developers, contractors, lenders and neighbourhoods all adding tension to any possible development). Steele or Highway 7 Loop would improve the efficiency of the YUS line (as reported in other TTC reports) and I think I've read how it would probably spark 24 hour service. The idea of extending the Yonge line to Steele or Highway 7 is supported by transit-friendly land zoning policies and visible intensification but the East-West portion of the corridor is auto-oriented. Land uses in North Toronto/York Region are still too auto-focused to support Subway expansion E-W along Steeles or Highway 7. Sheppard doesn't offer an adequate alternative either due to complications and costs associated with crossing the river.

But back to crackpott's original post:
I am doing my thesis on TOD in the GGH and have found a lot of articles on the barriers to LRT and how to overcome them. Queen Street's LRT defies most experts' opinion that LRT can only be successful with a dedicated right-of-way. You might want to discuss the implications of the missing right-of-way along Queen, the changes in land-use in Queen West from industrial to mixed-use/high density condo and the implications of having the Gardner nearby to stimulate auto ownership despite recent transit-supportive development.

 

[Brighter Hell]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

Steele or Highway 7 Loop would improve the efficiency of the YUS line (as reported in other TTC reports) and I think I've read how it would probably spark 24 hour service.

True enough, but the same thing could be accomplished with signal upgrades, which are being done anyway.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

"Sheppard doesn't offer an adequate alternative either due to complications and costs associated with crossing the river."

That bridge is a lousy excuse for not extending Sheppard to Downsview. If they can build the Sheppard line between the Yonge line and the surface without even closing down the Yonge line, Yonge Street, or Sheppard Avenue, they can build a bridge over the river.

"Sheppard can only be a success if it has bi-directional transit flow"

Only using your definition of "success." If a line is crowded or full going one way in rush hour, but almost empty going the other way, is it not successful? If extended to Downsview and STC, the Sheppard line would still see most of its riders going west in the morning and east in the evening, although the extensions would mean more of the random crosstown travel that the Bloor line currently has a monopoly on.

"The idea of extending to MCC is far fetched but not completely dumbfounded if service were to include rocket-services where trains by-passed several Bloor West stops before entering the downtown."

If you're gonna skip stops, might as well just divert the GO line to MCC, saving time and money.

 

[Sir Novelty Fashion]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

Interesting post, CSW. Thanks, and welcome to the forum.

 

[socialwoe]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

Of course, those Markham & Sheppard figures socialwoe's talking about include STC...

I chose to look at them as separate employment areas due to the 401 dividing them. Browne's Corners (collectively the area from Agincourt all the way to Conlins north of 401) does on it's own meet the RTES' criteria as a highly intensified employment zone. It's also a class division, as more blue-collar factory workers in contrast to white-collar office workers are employed in this area.

Queen Street's LRT defies most experts' opinion that LRT can only be successful with a dedicated right-of-way. You might want to discuss the implications of the missing right-of-way along Queen, the changes in land-use in Queen West from industrial to mixed-use/high density condo and the implications of having the Gardner nearby to stimulate auto ownership despite recent transit-supportive development.

The 501's far from perfect, but nice try for a rookie though. Queen's about the only streetcar route that desperately needs it's own ROW, likely underground. Off-peak it's not uncommon for 20 min delays in Parkdale, the Beaches and especially all throughout southwest Etobicoke even with Ronchesvalles, Conaught streetcar yards and Long Branch end route respectively so close by.

That bridge is a lousy excuse for not extending Sheppard to Downsview. If they can build the Sheppard line between the Yonge line and the surface without even closing down the Yonge line, Yonge Street, or Sheppard Avenue, they can build a bridge over the river.

Didn't they already bridge the Sheppard line over a river at Leslie ? I'd like to see this extension too but only if Senlac and Faywood are included. Senlac may be engulfed by a westwardly progressing NYC one day to warrant it. As for Faywood, it's close to several mixed-use low rise office buildings and some developement potential at Wilson Hts.

Only using your definition of "success." If a line is crowded or full going one way in rush hour, but almost empty going the other way, is it not successful?

This already exists. BD westbound is always dense but eastbound east of Yonge (esp. east of Sherbourne) drops off dramatically. By Coxwell your car barely has 10 people left in it. This by no means indicates it's futile but rather the trippers are so scattered in the east end it's hard to maintain a steady passenger volume.

If you're gonna skip stops, might as well just divert the GO line to MCC, saving time and money.

This sounds like express stops to me. BD's too old a line now to reconstruct to accomodate a third track, additional platforms, exits, etc. However who's to say DRLs serving the areas east and west of the downtown couldn't be express? Cooksville GO will always remain the closest thing to a MCC subway we'll ever see, it's better to focus on Hurontario RT for the future serving everywhere from Port Credit to Snelgrove not to the inconvenience of Milton-Union and vice-versa AM/PM Rush crowds.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

"I chose to look at them as separate employment areas due to the 401 dividing them. Browne's Corners (collectively the area from Agincourt all the way to Conlins north of 401) does on it's own meet the RTES' criteria as a highly intensified employment zone. It's also a class division, as more blue-collar factory workers in contrast to white-collar office workers are employed in this area."

The RTES figures for the RT extension, hence, for 'Markham & Sheppard', include population and employment in Scarborough Centre and are misleading. The RTES is flawed and obsolete. Your description of Brownes Corners is bizarre.

"Didn't they already bridge the Sheppard line over a river at Leslie "

Really, they built a tunnel over the river. The one east of Bathurst is a hell of a lot bigger.

"I'd like to see this extension too but only if Senlac and Faywood are included."

Adding Senlac should ensure Bessarion's no longer the least used subway station, at least.

"This already exists."

Yes, I know it exists. It exists on every subway line. That's why I mentioned it.

"This sounds like express stops to me."

What CSW suggested is not express, it's just slowing to a crawl and rolling through a few stations without stopping. "Express subways" already exist - GO.

 

[socialwoe]

Re: Help with my University project on Queen St. Transportat

The RTES figures for the RT extension, hence, for 'Markham & Sheppard', include population and employment in Scarborough Centre and are misleading.

Gosh look at a map, it's a totally different area. Yes Markham Road is dense enough to support a subway, three areas: from Ellesmere to McLevin, Lawrence and Eglinton are nodal. If Eglinton and BD/Sheppard takes care of two nodes with an underground 1km tunnel north to Cedarbrae aiding Lawrence then East Scarborough finally gets the type of service long overdue to it.

The RTES is flawed and obsolete.

Anything that justifies subways east of McCowan Road would be labelled as such by the likes of you :rolleyes . Since that's the most recent data we have to go by and the population's ever increasing (fastest growing pop. in the GTA) I'm inclined to believe in it's veracity.

Your description of Brownes Corners is bizarre.

Fine, we'll call it the Sheppard East Industrial Zone Enterprise (SEIZE) then.

Really, they built a tunnel over the river.

I was being sarcastic.

The one east of Bathurst is a hell of a lot bigger.

You know that bridge was reconstructed a few years ago. If they had any foresight they would've accomodated a ROW underneath.

Adding Senlac should ensure Bessarion's no longer the least used subway station, at least.

Bessarion won't be the least used forever. They are several planned condo communities for the Canadian Tire lands. A new NYC bus could be routed via Burbank/Citation/Empress/Park Home/Senlac terminating here bringing a few thousand more per day.

As for Senlac it's very likely it'd be absorbed into NYC within a decade, there's already alot of dentistry/lawyer offices in the area, route 98, mid-rise apts at Brentwood, cemetary, etc. Hell even where construction of the current line ends is merely a block away from Senlac (Welbeck), so if even simply to make the Yonge stop more accessible trains could terminate there and turnback making all 3 platforms and exits accessible.

Yes, I know it exists. It exists on every subway line. That's why I mentioned it.

I was directing that more towards the newbie's assertion about Sheppard. You people spend too mch time worrying about the numbers...costs, budgets, ridership. Everything falls into place once officials are committed to actually building new frigging lines, reducing the number of time commuters have to waste on smelly, lethatgic buses, the only figure we need stress over.

What CSW suggested is not express, it's just slowing to a crawl and rolling through a few stations without stopping. "Express subways" already exist - GO.

How is a surface route that can never maintain the level of service (20 hrs a day, 90-sec reliability, climate controlled) an underground route can a "express subway" :eek ? If you reread my response, I never said to 'expressify' BD. You already know that if I did a west-east DRL it'd go like: Sherway, Kipling South, Humber-Kingsway, Dufferin South, Exhibition, Fort York, Skydome, Union, Distillery, Cherry Street, Riverdale, Coxwell, Victoria Park (note: this doesn't prevent rapid service up Pape/Don Mills or Coxwell/Don Mills and Weston SUB).