Hamilton Hamilton Line B LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Because the concept hasn't been applied effectively in Ontario yet, so most people haven't seen it yet and don't understand what it can do for them.

The Hamilton debate is doubly confused because there is a large population who aren't engaged towards transforming the downtown, or who think that means returning it to a past state rather than moving it forward to something new.

Perhaps keeping our options open while we wait for Kitchener and Ottawa to set an example is the best we can hope for.

- Paul

This is a good point. But, it seems Ottawa got theirs without much trouble. Kitchener as well. I should have said the GTA. Well, Just Toronto, Scarborough and Hamilton then . But seriously, how do we show them this is good?

 

[dowlingm]

The Hamilton debate is doubly confused because there is a large population who aren't engaged towards transforming the downtown, or who think that means returning it to a past state rather than moving it forward to something new.

that last bit is important, and I believe why a good destination for the $ would be a KW phase 2, since that is a region closer to accepting the need to transform and businesses and industries looking to be part of it.

Kitchener got LRT without much trouble? That's not my recollection especially with it seeming like there was a negative piece in the Waterloo Record at every opportunity up to when it was too late to turn back. I haven't been keeping track but maybe they are still at it.

 

[crs1026]

Ottawa only got support for LRT after it outgrew BRT. There had been LRT proposals and debates over the years, but BRT was cheaper and was seen as 'all that's needed'. (To give credit, Ottawa's pioneering and proving of BRT is why it is so readily accepted by LRT naysayers.... a lot of innovation and trail breaking).
O-train was instrumental in building the case for LRT - happily, Ottawa had underutilised rail lines that were readily available, and once established the line did become popular - but those existing rail lines did not go to enough of the important places. Once the concept was proven, there came to be acceptance that new dedicated rail lines would have to be built. But only then.
I would argue that Ottawa's acceptance of LRT was three decades or more in the making, and Ottawa's civic support for higher order transit, while ultimately achieved, has actually been a pretty cautious and fiscally stingy journey.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

This should have been there all the time with the A line added with extra funds

LRT to Eastgate: Is it pulling 'Rabbits out of hats?' or a realistic gambit to save LRT?

 

[mdrejhon]

This should have been there all the time with the A line added with extra funds

LRT to Eastgate: Is it pulling 'Rabbits out of hats?' or a realistic gambit to save LRT?

I'd love to see Eastgate happens. But the section between McQueston Circle and Eastgate is a minefield. The political equivalent of a demilitarized zone.

Chad Collins (Ward 5 councillor) and Bob Bratina (MPP, Stoney Creek area) are both opponents against LRT. They are going to be a bit aghast at Terry ramming an LRT through their territory. So understandably, Matthew Green (our councillor) tweeted this may be a red herring.

I do see a scenario where Eastgate happens as an overlapped ESR study that begins almost immediately (extra staff hired), an agreement-in-principle, and a ~2025-2026 open date for the Traffic Circle-to-Eastgate section. Basically, begin working on Eastgate now as an overlapped project (Whether under city funds, Fed funds, or expanded Metrolinx funds). The problem is the 2018 election will be quite messy. An agreement-in-principle (to the above) would probably make Terry Whitehead say yes to this milestone.

Basically, don't delay B-Line, but agree to endorsing a motion of an agreement-in-principle to immediately begin an overlapped Phase 2 ESR. Then we have several months (before Summer 2018) to nail the Eastegate extension agreement (financing, etc) in order for Terry to say #yesLRT again in the Summer 2018 construction go-ahead vote (the last major vote after this). This is the type of rabbits that needs to be pulled out of the hat.

After Terry Whitehead says #yesLRT this coming Wednesday, there is one more major LRT-derailing milestone to pass:

What we're doing is trying to finish the "2017 March/April" milestone that greenlights procurement.

The big dangerous milestone is Financial Close. In the midst of 2018 elections. It's necessary to get a green light from city council to begin construction.

TL;DR: It will be one hugely expensive, messy 2018 election campaign for municipal and provincial elections.

 

[OneCity]

This is a good point. But, it seems Ottawa got theirs without much trouble. Kitchener as well. I should have said the GTA. Well, Just Toronto, Scarborough and Hamilton then . But seriously, how do we show them this is good?

Scarborough and Hamilton are quite a bit different. Most of Scarborough has nothing against "LRT" as a technology. The biggest challenge to overcome was the questionable integration to Toronto current network in the proposed LRT plan. LRT is actually heavily support along Eglinton & Kingston Rd.

Most Hamilton suburbs don't rely the HSR in the same way as Scarborough which sees fairly high usage on the TTC bus network. Hamilton is a tough sell outside of the beneficiary areas because the majority drive cars and that stretch where LRT is going to be built isn't seen as a priority problem area in most of their commutes

I personally think the LRT will be great for Hamilton's continuing rejuvenation of the core and transformation to into a more urban landscape and also hope it gets announced to Eastgate square as it moves ahead. For those who think Hamilton will want the LRT once Kitchener and others are complete they are wrong. The people that oppose just have no use for a public transit line that goes thorough an area that is not seen as a priority transit problem.

Scarborough is being addressed with a revised plan to move forward. Hamilton is completely different battle.

 

[Momin]

Update:

Last week, Hamilton City Council debated for over 12 hours on the future of Hamilton's LRT plan, one of Metrolinx's Big Move transit infrastructure projects to get people moving more easily in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area (GTHA). At the end of it, all that was decided was they would continue talking about it on April 26th. What Council is debating is whether or not to accept (re-accept?) a $1 billion plan—which is fully funded by the Province through Metrolinx—to build an LRT line along King and Main streets from McMaster University to Queenston Circle.

 

[TOareaFan]

Update:

The final opposition point that we'll address is the issue of operating costs. Many on the no side are worried about the City being saddled with the 'enormous' operating costs of operating the LRT line. The reality however is quite different. Currently, it costs the City of Hamilton about $5.00 for every bus passenger they carry, while Calgary's C-Train (an LRT) costs $0.27 per passenger. While this is an important factor, it should be noted that the Operations and Maintenance Agreement between the City and Metrolinx has yet to be finalized, so details about revenue splitting, operating costs, and other factors are still to be determined.

This question of future operating costs seems to come up in every LRT proposal where the province is willing to pay a significant percentage, or all, of the capital costs. So the question is rather obvious....why does the process seek for municipal governments to approve these projects before the operating agreement has been negotiated? Surely, if the cost to the municipality was actually going to be the same or lower than their current bus operations then the confirming of that in advance would remove one roadblock to approval....no?

 

[JasonParis]

Move the money to the Milton GO line. Enough of this. Why do Ontarians turn into brats when Light Rail Transit comes up?

Rob Ford's ghost continues to haunt large parts of urban Ontario it seems.

Things should hopefully be better in *selling* LRT once K-W, Ottawa, and Eglinton Crosstown are open.

 

[rbt]

Surely, if the cost to the municipality was actually going to be the same or lower than their current bus operations then the confirming of that in advance would remove one roadblock to approval....no?

Almost certainly. I think the big fear is the province will charge fees high enough for capital replacement. TTC doesn't really care as they get those costs today, with periodic assistance.

 

[OneCity]

Things should hopefully be better in *selling* LRT once K-W, Ottawa, and Eglinton Crosstown are open.

Not sure that will change the opposition whatsoever. The reality is that the areas in Hamilton opposed to LRT just dont benefit from it aside from a better downtown which is quite far away from many to begin and already easily accessible for the transportation of choice. That wont change.

I personally think it will be great for the City which is finally gaining momentum to rejuvenate its core. The Province should bundle this project with a local Red Hill or QEW improvement to make both sides happy. That might help squeeze it thru down the road.

 

[crs1026]

Not sure that will change the opposition whatsoever. The reality is that the areas in Hamilton opposed to LRT just dont benefit from it aside from a better downtown which is quite far away from many to begin and already easily accessible for the transportation of choice. That wont change.

I personally think it will be great for the City which is finally gaining momentum to rejuvenate its core. The Province should bundle this project with a local Red Hill or QEW improvement to make both sides happy. That might help squeeze it thru down the road.

Very true. The people who are excited by the potential of a new downtown are not "old" Hamiltonians. No one on Council owes this group anything, nor do they really hold much sway over many of the Councillors. That "old" constituency doesn't need a downtown, and they probably don't even go there very often. If they do, their main concern is parking not transit.

It remains to be seen whether Ontario is wedded enough to LRT or to the 'new' supporters' votes to try to sway this thing. That may not mean convincing the undecided. I wonder if a couple of the firm 'nays' could be wooed if Ontario put something on the table for them. It would only take one or two. More likely, Ontario will decide that LRT wasn't the vote winning bauble that they had hoped for, and just fold their tent and take the money elsewhere.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

GO makes Hamilton a bedroom community. High order intraurban transit makes it a destination.

The Spec published a diatribe from an engineer about how the LRT was death to traffic management. Not to say he's wrong - I'm not a P.Eng. - but it's curiously late in the day for him to mention it now, and for the Spec to publish it.
http://m.thespec.com/opinion-story/7259156-a-civil-engineer-looks-at-hamilton-s-lrt

 

[nfitz]

The Spec published a diatribe from an engineer about how the LRT was death to traffic management. Not to say he's wrong - I'm not a P.Eng. - but it's curiously late in the day for him to mention it now, and for the Spec to publish it.
http://m.thespec.com/opinion-story/7259156-a-civil-engineer-looks-at-hamilton-s-lrt

I suppose that you won't be surprised to know that the "engineer" in question, Carl Turkstra, graduated in 1958, is over 80, doesn't appear to have practiced engineering in almost 30 years, and was a structural engineer, not a transport or highway engineer. In addition, his PEO registration shows that he is not practicing - meaning he isn't allowed to practice engineering of any sort.

Needless to say, he is grossly unqualified to opine on the subject professionally.

 

[mdrejhon]

It'll be approved Wednesday, no problem --
Terry Whitehead is easily #yesLRT, no matter what he spouts, and what media claims.

It's the O&M agreement we shsould be worried about. Far bigger battle.