Markham GTA Centre | ?m | ?s | GTA S. and E. | BBB

Of all the silly rumours on this site, the Leafs moving to Markham is the silliest. For one thing, there's no disappearing parking around the ACC. The new buildings in that area are replacing all the surface parking, and then some.

taal said:
But here's a question ? Where's the profit, wouldn't it make more sense just to buy out the leafs and continue operating them from the ACC ? No costs for the arena whatsoever, moreover, we already know it does well. The arena in Markham will likely make the same or less money per year (assuming the ACC is essentially completely written off - by moving the teams it would be effectively).
Click to expand...
Building a new arena and buying a failing NHL team (~$500 million) is a lot cheaper than buying MLSE ($1.5 billion).
 
taal said:
meh, I didn't say it was impossible, anything is possible :)

But the argument regarding parking has another huge hole ... why fix something that isn't broke ? It the ACC truly starts seeing declining revenue due to a lack of parking (which clearly isn't the case today, as of now) and they are not bright enough to work out some aragments with the nearby private parking; Then sure, one can argue there is benefit in moving the team.

Here's another point; You guys are envisioning a massive sea of parking for the 'downtown Markham' arena ? Don't count on it ... that would go against everything they're trying to do.

I predict they build a massive underground parking, and temporarily put surface parking sounding the site until the downtown Markham project gets closer to this area, then you'll see it get redeveloped.
Click to expand...

My guess would be build surface parking when it starts, but then gradually start replacing the surface parking with a mix of parking structures and condos/office buildings.

Just a point about this: being from Ottawa, I'm a bit weary of building stadiums out in the suburbs as part of a "massive development". The location of Scotiabank Place is one of the biggest planning mistakes in the history of the City of Ottawa (actually, it was the City of Kanata that approved it).

Until real rapid transit is available there, the modal split is probably going to be about 85% car. Combine that with the fact that the only adjacent highway is a toll highway, and you have a recipe for disaster on municipal roads.

It's not just getting FROM games, it's also getting TO games, especially when it's a 7pm start. The 417 westbound is backed up sometimes for 40+ minutes because of the combined rush hour and game night traffic.

In short: it's not an situation that I want to see repeated in other suburban municipalities.
 
taal said:
I think they may indeed not have a choice.

But let's assume that doesn't matter for a second; What about the idea of just movnig the leafs period to Markham ? Does that make any busienss sense, I think that's his argument.
Click to expand...

I don't see it. I really do think this is a play for an NHL franchise given that Bauer hockey is behind it. I don't know if Roustan has the money himself, but he was rumoured to be interested in buying the Canadiens when they were for sale. He's partnering on this project with Rudy Bratty who is one of the richest people in the country too, so maybe the money is there.

Second, I don't know why MLSE would be interested in moving out of an arena they own to pay rent to play in Markham? Seems like a pretty high-risk venture for a company that has a mandate to make money for the Teacher Pension Fund. If you read the section on Richard Peddie in the book "Leafs Abomination", they put pretty huge expectations on him in terms of the money he is expected to generate and this certainly wouldn't be a safe move. Also, as mentioned, so much of the Leafs' value is tied into the corporations who line up to pay for season tickets and luxury boxes. If you move the team to Markham, you're alienating your biggest market. I'd put it on par with what's happened in Phoenix in terms of moving to an arena where your wealthiest fans can't get to it (that's not to say they'd be in even a fraction of the trouble as Phoenix is in but would still put a big dent in their potential earnings). The other thing is, the money they make from concerts outweighs what they make from the Leafs and Raptors per event. Why would they abandon that cash cow in favour of renting a facility?

Third, the idea that they're seeking more parking is pretty funny. They have the most accessible location in the entire GTA. Neither them nor the Jays have showed signs that they wish for more parking in the area, and if it was a concern, don't you think Rogers and MLSE would come up with a strategy to fix that (it might have been worked into the plan for Maple Leaf Square, no?)? For their brand, they couldn't be in a more highly visible, highly marketable area in the entire country.

Fourth, as we already know, the Teachers have put their stake in MLSE up for sale. Why would they be in negotiations with this Markham group if they had no intentions on keeping the team? We're talking about a $300million+ arena and if the sole pupose of it was to bring the Leafs there then there's no way it would be this far into the planning stage. Also, there's no way MLSE would be making such a negotiation if they had no intention on owning the team long term (and until they officially take the team off the market, they're showing no intnetion on holding on to them long term). And let's say for some crazy reason they were doing this. the value of their stake would drop, which would go against their mandate.

Most of this has already been touched on in this thread, but it's worth repeating.
 
Last edited:
This model by Remington shows the proposed arena in context:

w2jsr.jpg


The entire development seems to have added quite a bit of height.
 
Last edited:
From what I recall the stuff far to the west (i.e. left side above) is what's being build not, the taller building though, not yet ?

The taller buildings are all residential towers part of another project ? Forgot the name.

Also is that big building the stadium, guess so.
 
The taller buildings to the right are part of the Downtown Markham project as everything shown is west of the GO line. The other project (can't remember the name either) is east of the GO line.
 
Markham awaits proposal for NHL-ready arena development

Municipal officials in Markham, Ont., are still waiting to see a proposal for a 20,000-seat arena development announced last year by a Canadian businessman, but the town’s mayor said it would still be possible for a shovel to hit the ground in 2012, and that the proposal “would be priority No. 1†when and if it lands before council.
Click to expand...

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/02/15/markham-awaits-proposal-for-nhl-ready-arena-development/
 
Automation Gallery said:
Not fair...they are already getting their subway, it also now gives Markham a chance to ask for some rapid transit
Click to expand...


what type of rapid transit could they possibly get? a GO train line? a LRT on highway 7? A BRT on highway 7? How will people not in markham get to the events other then driving? people should learn things from mistakes like the corel centre in Ottawa which really you can only access via highway. Guess what that equals TRAFFIC NIGHTMARE. I do realize that markham residents will be able to get there easily but to fill a 20,000 seat venue they are going to need some visitors.
 
sixrings said:
someone tell them to keep the plan and change the location. VCC is a much better idea.
Click to expand...

perhaps, just maybe, there might be a small chance......that they have made a proposal in markham because, you know, they own/control the land. maybe it is hard to move a proposal to land they don't own. maybe, if vcc is the right location (and it may be) someone who owns that land should "change the location"
 
I think the key to this whole thing is the GO Transit infrastructure leading to the venue. Subways hold about 1000 per train while a GO train can hold about double that.

While the TTC serves the city of Toronto well, it's simply not as wide-reaching as the GO Transit service. You could easily charter a few GO's from various cities around the GTA to the arena and be there in 30 minutes without having to transfer or pay for parking or whatever.

The subway to VCC looks good but it's just not going to reach as many people.
 
marp said:
I think the key to this whole thing is the GO Transit infrastructure leading to the venue. Subways hold about 1000 per train while a GO train can hold about double that.

While the TTC serves the city of Toronto well, it's simply not as wide-reaching as the GO Transit service. You could easily charter a few GO's from various cities around the GTA to the arena and be there in 30 minutes without having to transfer or pay for parking or whatever.

The subway to VCC looks good but it's just not going to reach as many people.
Click to expand...

Even if we use your numbers your logic fails. The ttc train carrying 1000 passengers comes every 5 minutes meaning in one hour the ttc subway could drop off 12000 passengers. If the go train comes every 15 minutes (that's way above what a go train normally runs) in the same hour GO drops off 8000 riders.

As for the comment that they own the land in Markham which is why they can't move the proposal, sell the land, and buy the same size near vcc. Pretty simple conclusion really.
 
sixrings said:
Even if we use your numbers your logic fails. The ttc train carrying 1000 passengers comes every 5 minutes meaning in one hour the ttc subway could drop off 12000 passengers. If the go train comes every 15 minutes (that's way above what a go train normally runs) in the same hour GO drops off 8000 riders.
Click to expand...

This I agree with....plus when you add in that GO is very Union centred you would be asking/requiring people to take their GO trains from wherever they are to Union to transfer onto a train that takes them to Markham. Pretty sure most people would, either, drive or skip the event.

sixrings said:
As for the comment that they own the land in Markham which is why they can't move the proposal, sell the land, and buy the same size near vcc. Pretty simple conclusion really.
Click to expand...

This I can't agree with as much. It would be more likely that someone else who owned land near VCC comes up with a competing plan. Developers like this propose projects like this to maximize the value of their land....sure they hope to bring some community benefit but they are, afterall, people in the land/property business. Saying "this does not make sense here so I will sell this land and buy land where it makes sense" is like saying "I will sell low and buy high"....not how they got rich in the first place.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top