GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

[rbt]

what is happening with yrt/go that is so different with ttc? why cant both parties work together for the benifit of millions?

All riders transferring from GO to YRT (or the other way around) earn YRT a full fare for revenue in all cases; Metrolinx pays the difference between a full Presto fare and the discounted fare the customer sees. This is the same in Mississauga, Hamilton, Oakville, Oshawa, Barrie, etc.

TTC is the only agency in the GTHA which has not been made the same offer by Metrolinx. TTC has told Metrolinx they would happily accept the same terms as all other GTHA transit agencies receive.

 

[Leo_Chan]

All riders transferring from GO to YRT (or the other way around) earn YRT a full fare for revenue in all cases; Metrolinx pays the difference between a full Presto fare and the discounted fare the customer sees. This is the same in Mississauga, Hamilton, Oakville, Oshawa, Barrie, etc.

TTC is the only agency in the GTHA which has not been made the same offer by Metrolinx. TTC has told Metrolinx they would happily accept the same terms as all other GTHA transit agencies receive.

Do you have a source for this? I have a feeling that the TTC is seen as not being cooperative around the forums.

 

[rbt]

Do you have a source for this?

Memo's from Mississauga city council stating have been posted in this thread before (likely several hundred pages back now) showing how it worked for them.

The assumption that local transit agencies were taking a revenue hit is popular, but still an assumption. Most folks blame Ticket Master for convenience fees too rather than the stadium that negotiates it to ensure they pay $0 for the ticketing services. Perception is sometimes more important than what actually happens.

Of course, since local transit agencies are soon going to be paying absurdly high Presto fees (10%+ of revenue) it will probably balance out in the end over a 50 year period.

 

[mdrejhon]

TTC is the only agency in the GTHA which has not been made the same offer by Metrolinx. TTC has told Metrolinx they would happily accept the same terms as all other GTHA transit agencies receive.

Is it linked to pre-requisites such as Presto integration? I'm wondering if come 2018-2019, all the checkboxes click and this actually happens?

 

[muller877]

Or GO's reluctance in providing Toronto the same funding to cover those transferring from GO, that they offer other cities. It's not like TTC is running a profit - and Toronto shouldn't be on the hook for transporting people from 905, without some revenue.

The assumption for the 'burbs is that the bus subsidy is cheaper than building more parking spots. Since Toronto does not have very many parking spots dedicated to GO there is no cost offset.

Of course is assumes there are not many Toronto-Toronto trips (which is most likely the case).

The TTC right now acts similar to how the USA negotiates NAFTA...my way or the highway. Until the TTC actually negotiates based on Toronto's needs (and not TTC's refusal to make any changes) we will never get fare integration.

 

[smallspy]

All riders transferring from GO to YRT (or the other way around) earn YRT a full fare for revenue in all cases; Metrolinx pays the difference between a full Presto fare and the discounted fare the customer sees. This is the same in Mississauga, Hamilton, Oakville, Oshawa, Barrie, etc.

TTC is the only agency in the GTHA which has not been made the same offer by Metrolinx. TTC has told Metrolinx they would happily accept the same terms as all other GTHA transit agencies receive.

The reasoning from it, at least at GO's end, is that the suburban carriers help reduce parking lot usage by running buses directly to the stations. There was no such incentive to do so in Toronto as there were fewer stations where the parking lots were at or near capacity (although that is changing). There was also the fear that Torontonians from outlying areas of the City would overwhelm GO's limited capacity.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I imagine they would also end up subsidizing a large amount of short trips on the subway around downtown to get to and from Union Station.

 

[steveintoronto]

I recollect that the local municipality with a co-fare arrangement had to contribute towards the cost, in a one-off per annum (ostensibly fixed) charge. This was one of the reasons for Guelph Transit's reluctance. Guelph Transit loved the idea, City Council, now leaning to the right of centre, and not very pro-transit, deemed otherwise to approving the charge.

I'll try and find reference for that later, but meantime, Steve Munro has (gist) "the latest attempt at fare integration from GO" just up on his website:
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=18476

Edit to Add: I'll continue to try to find the exact funding arrangement by at least Guelph Council for this, but note that the following was deemed by Guelph, not GO: (Note that Guelph Transit's shortcoming to avoiding fraud is the lack of a Presto fare system, deemed by Council as being too costly. Penny wise, Pound foolish. I'm a Centrist, but by going too far to save money, it often costs more in the long term. And Guelph Transit (through no fault of management) is a prime example. It's exactly why they've gone through three managers in as many years. It also stymies Guelph's quest to attract more industry to boost the tax base)

Apr 03, 2015 by Mercury staff Guelph Mercury

GUELPH — Guelph Transit is tightening up rules and scrutiny around the reduced fare it offers GO Transit riders after a rise in the fraudulent use of the program.

GO riders who use the PRESTO card can still ride Guelph Transit for 60 cents, but only during specified hours.

"Guelph Transit is aware that this change to the co-fare program will impact those GO Transit riders who use PRESTO cards outside of the specified time frames, and we apologize for this inconvenience," said Phil Meagher, general manager of Guelph Transit in a news release.

"Guelph Transit is taking this step to ensure the co-fare program works the way it was intended so only those who are eligible will fairly receive the discount."

Guelph Transit and Metrolinx developed the co-fare program in 2012 to encourage GO riders to use Guelph Transit to get them to and from Guelph Central Station.

GO riders could show a Guelph Transit bus driver their single ride GO ticket, their GO day-pass, or their PRESTO card and ride city buses for just 60 cents.

Over the past year however, fraudulent use of the program has been on the rise, the release states. So Guelph Transit and Metrolinx are tightening the rules to ensure that only those who qualify get the reduced rate.

GO riders can still show their single-ride or day passes to city bus drivers, but the PRESTO card only qualifies for the discount between 5:45 and 7:30 a.m. and 6:15 and 7:45 p.m. during regular weekday service.

The new rules take effect April 13.

"Guelph Transit is committed to multi-modal transportation and hopes GO Transit passengers will continue to use Guelph Transit to connect with Go Transit at Guelph Central Station," Derrick Thomson, deputy chief administrative officer of public services states in the release.

Those who use GO and Guelph Transit outside the specified hours will have to pay full fare on city buses. They are encouraged to purchase monthly passes for greater savings.

https://www.guelphmercury.com/news-...-metrolinx-co-fare-come-into-effect-april-13/

 

[Northern Light]

Not sure if this will end up belonging in this thread, but I'll stick it here for now:


They're letting Del Duca out to play again tomorrow, this time at Appleby GO Stn.

Oddly, along side the Min. of Tourism.

https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2017...ture-and-sport-to-make-an-announcement-1.html

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Not sure if this will end up belonging in this thread, but I'll stick it here for now:


They're letting Del Duca out to play again tomorrow, this time at Appleby GO Stn.

Oddly, along side the Min. of Tourism.

https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2017...ture-and-sport-to-make-an-announcement-1.html

Appleby GO is in the Burlington riding, which is Tourism Minister Eleanor McMahon's riding.

 

[Markster]

I imagine they would also end up subsidizing a large amount of short trips on the subway around downtown to get to and from Union Station.

Yeah, the deal that Metrolinx has with the 905 agencies just won't scale with the TTC.

It works because:
1) Transit ridership is a relatively small proportion of trips to stations in the 905.
2) The co-fare subsidy is a lower percentage of the overall larger fares from 905 stations.
----- Burlington to Union is $9.99, Burlington Transit is $2.50 on Presto, so GO retains $7.99 after the 50c co-fare. 80% of a non-transit-connecting fare
----- Etobicoke North to Union is $5.02, TTC is $3 on Presto, so GO would retain $2.52 after the 50c co-fare. 50.2% of a non-transit-connecting fare
3) Only one transit co-fare has to be subsidized per trip.
----- A vanishingly small number of trips currently involve two co-fare eligible trips.
----- Cooksville to Union is $6.18. Miway and TTC are each $3, which would be $2.50 subsidy to each. Go would retain $1.18. 19% of a non-transit-connecting fare

And finally, neither GO nor the TTC are interested in increasing ridership in their critically overcapacity sections.
GO's capacity hits the highest points at the Toronto stations. Adding service in the 416 is expensive, and the trips that makes room for are lower value than the long-hauls from the 905.
The TTC is not interested in having large volumes of GO riders swamping the subway, and likely thinks that a mutually-shared subsidy with GO would just end up with similar revenue but greater ridership downtown where there is the least spare capacity.

 

[TOareaFan]

^some municipalities have a 50 cent co-fare? It has climbed to 80 cents on Brampton Transit....I assumed all were at same level.

 

[ShonTron]

Yeah, the deal that Metrolinx has with the 905 agencies just won't scale with the TTC.

It works because:
1) Transit ridership is a relatively small proportion of trips to stations in the 905.
2) The co-fare subsidy is a lower percentage of the overall larger fares from 905 stations.
----- Burlington to Union is $9.99, Burlington Transit is $2.50 on Presto, so GO retains $7.99 after the 50c co-fare. 80% of a non-transit-connecting fare
----- Etobicoke North to Union is $5.02, TTC is $3 on Presto, so GO would retain $2.52 after the 50c co-fare. 50.2% of a non-transit-connecting fare
3) Only one transit co-fare has to be subsidized per trip.
----- A vanishingly small number of trips currently involve two co-fare eligible trips.
----- Cooksville to Union is $6.18. Miway and TTC are each $3, which would be $2.50 subsidy to each. Go would retain $1.18. 19% of a non-transit-connecting fare

And finally, neither GO nor the TTC are interested in increasing ridership in their critically overcapacity sections.
GO's capacity hits the highest points at the Toronto stations. Adding service in the 416 is expensive, and the trips that makes room for are lower value than the long-hauls from the 905.
The TTC is not interested in having large volumes of GO riders swamping the subway, and likely thinks that a mutually-shared subsidy with GO would just end up with similar revenue but greater ridership downtown where there is the least spare capacity.

At least most people taking the subway to/from Union Station connecting with GO will be counter-peak traffic.

 

[Megaton327]

^some municipalities have a 50 cent co-fare? It has climbed to 80 cents on Brampton Transit....I assumed all were at same level.

I believe it's higher for most of them now. YRT/Viva is $1.00. These days I largely hear fare integration discussions, as far as they concern a traditional GO co-fare, referred to as $1.

At least most people taking the subway to/from Union Station connecting with GO will be counter-peak traffic.

Hard to say peak/counter-peak conclusively in the vicinity of Union. Some southbound Yonge riders go around the U to St Andrew or Osgoode. Some southbound York/Spadina/University riders will head to King or Queen. Vice versa in the evening. Trains stay somewhat busy through Union during peak.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Do the Metrolinx studies even look at transit capacities that change due to fare integration? This bring up a good point where GO riders that usually get off at Union will get off somewhere else and then take the already at capacity TTC to get to their final destination rather than walk from Union. Same with other places where using multiple modes will be cheaper and faster than the current.