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GO Transit: Redevelopment of Station Parking Lots

JasonParis

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OAKVILLE REDEVELOPMENT
GO eyes paradise from a parking lot
Feb 11, 2008 04:30 AM
TORONTO STAR
Tess Kalinowski
Transportation Reporter


Today the Oakville GO station's dominant feature is a vast expanse of paved parking.

But Oakville is already moving to transform that land into a vibrant work-live neighbourhood that could attract between 20,000 and 30,000 people to the area south of the QEW near Trafalgar Rd.

The vision for the Midtown Oakville area includes offices, light industry, homes, walking and cycling trails and, at its heart, access to local transit, GO service and bus rapid transit. Oakville is even considering relocating its town hall from the current location north of the QEW.

"The stars, the moon and the planets have all lined up on this," said Oakville Mayor Rob Burton, adding that 13 months of consultations have wrought nothing but praise for the planned development.

"This is absolutely a place that is ripe for land use and transportation," said Joe Berridge, a transportation consultant developing a business plan for Midtown.

He is the same expert who has been working with the province's transportation planning agency, Metrolinx, on a proposal to put mobility hubs across Greater Toronto. In places like Oakville, those hubs could be destinations in themselves, a neighbourhood where people work, live, meet and shop.

"Midtown has all the components of a mobility hub," Berridge told the GO board Friday. "It has the best chance of any of the urban growth centres of getting off to a strong start."

What makes Oakville's GO station so ripe for this kind of development is the vast amount of public land available there, if parking lots are replaced by structures.

GO and the town together own about 12 hectares of land in the area. Some 33 hectares are railway and hydro lands, and there's a parcel belonging to General Electric.

The Midtown development is effectively underway with the advent of GO's third track along the lakeshore and the widening of the QEW underpass, Burton said. He expects many of the homes, workplaces and amenities in the plan to be in place by 2020, with the entire vision realized within 20 years.

It will be a decade before the town outgrows its current civic headquarters, but at that point moving it would be a real possibility. Oakville is expected to grow from its current population of 166,000 to about 230,000 by 2021. "Many of us believe that to support Midtown is to take a position there," said Burton.

Midtown is one of three intensification areas already identified in the existing urban plan and the province's Places to Grow document. At least one or two more will be identified in a new official plan for the town to be released in June, according to Burton.

He's determined that Midtown won't take the "left turn" that occurred in the Uptown area of Dundas St. and Trafalgar Rd. Initially visualized as a vibrant "Manhattan style" streetscape, it became another sprawling big-box development.

The third area designated for intensification is around Dundas St. and Bronte Rd.

If the Midtown development shows signs of success, the Bronte GO station would be an obvious next target for development.

As to costs, Burton says Oakville is still trying to catch up with the current pace of growth in terms of infrastructure and services.

"I'm not the mayor who is going to subsidize growth. Growth is supposed to pay for itself," he said.

Berridge said early signals suggest a successful Midtown development could indeed pay for itself.
 
It's a good idea, in theory, but I'm getting kind of tired of how politicians, developers and even urban enthusiasts are somehow sold on the fact that we can spontaneously create thriving urban centres on fields, parking lots, or any other plot of land that is not at least linked to an existing urban (as in, urban in design) fabric.

In the past four decades, the only suburban "downtown" in the GTA that was even marginally successful was North York Centre, and that was only because it grew off of an existing village. The rest of the 'cart before the horse' creations: MCC, Pickering, STC, and soon to be followed by Vaughan and "Downtown Markham" have or will fail to create a sense of place or a true focal point for the surrounding communities.

Oakville already has a downtown and a very good one, at that. All the intensification and urban place-making that needs to be done in that city should start there.
 
To be fair, MCC and SCC used now-discredited Modernist planning principles with grade-separated walkways, large plazas, and shopping malls at the centre. It remains to be seen how Vaughan and Markham Centres do with more traditional "urban" planning with a street grid and street-related buildings.

I might add that SCC, for example, may not have the most attractive streets lined with shops, but it does meet a lot of goals with respect to transit use, walkability, etc. It's just that a lot of the mixed uses are inside a mall, which isn't necessarily crazy considering our climate.
 
^ "Villages" were built on empty fields too.

Doady, I'm obviously not talking about a bunch of settlers building a community to support their grist mill in 1836. I'm talking about planning modern live/work communities for tens of thousands of people on vacant suburban industrial land.

I might add that SCC, for example, may not have the most attractive streets lined with shops, but it does meet a lot of goals with respect to transit use, walkability, etc. It's just that a lot of the mixed uses are inside a mall, which isn't necessarily crazy considering our climate.

On a day like today I can understand your last sentence, but an indoor mall is not the same as a neighbourhood. It's private space, for one, and it also lacks the flexibility of being owned by a number of different property owners. If you walk down an urban strip, the storefronts can run the gamut from walk-in clinics to Drivers License renewal centres, banks, cash checking outlets, delis, upscale boutiques, dry cleaners, art galleries, chain fashion retailers and restaurants. Law and medical offices, immigration services, tutoring schools, and other commercial uses are often squirreled away on the second floors. The services offered on a retail strip like this support the community in numerous ways. This is not the case inside a shopping mall, where the only activity offered within is shopping, and a very limited array of shopping experiences, at that.
 
Doady, I'm obviously not talking about a bunch of settlers building a community to support their grist mill in 1836. I'm talking about planning modern live/work communities for tens of thousands of people on vacant suburban industrial land.

The bottom line is that all communities were built from scratch. What matters is how they were built and planned. NYCC was successful becuase of transit, not because of an existing village. If MCC was built around Streetsville, I doubt it would be as successful.
 
Big Yellow Taxi... Joni Mitchell

They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot
With a pink hotel, a boutique
And a swinging hot spot
Don't it always seem to go
You don't know what you've got
"Til it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

They took all the trees
Put 'em in a tree museum
And they charged the people
A dollar and a half just to see 'em
Don't it always seem to go
You don't know what you've got
'Til it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

Hey farmer farmer
Put away that d.d.t. now
Give me spots on my apples
But leave me the birds and the bees
Please!
Don't it always seem to go
You don't know what you've got
'Til it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

Late last night
I heard that screen door slam
And a big yellow tractor came and
Pushed around my house
Pushed around my land
And I said, don't it always seem to go
You don't know what you've got 'til it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

Late last night
I heard that screen door slam again
And a big yellow taxi come and
Took away my old man again
Don't it always seem to go
You don't know what you've got
'Til it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot
 
MCC does very well for transit use in Mississauga. Probably the busiest transit hub outside of the 416.
 
Oakville is an interesting place...

Everyone: I feel that Oakville is indeed an interesting place due to its location-about 20 miles from either Toronto Union or Hamilton on GO Transit trains. Transit-oriented development would be good there I feel-the good train service attracting people there for starters. With development on the Lakeshore I now wonder if it is still possible to tell where Toronto's suburbs begin and Hamilton's ends for that matter(or vice versa).

I recall an interesting comment made by SeanTrans comparing Toronto and Hamilton with Baltimore and Washington,DC-the areas around them have grown so much in recent years that the metro areas overlap-the Maryland suburbs between BAL and WAS as well as the area between TOR and HML-with both city pairs being about 40 miles apart for starters. The BAL-WAS area is now getting expanded MARC commuter rail service-especially on its Amtrak-operated and electrified Penn line-in comparison to GO's busy Lakeshore Line a good example. What makes a town like Oakville interesting is an relatively easy commute to both TOR and HML as well as good location.
That's my two cents here-LI MIKE
 
The bottom line is that all communities were built from scratch. What matters is how they were built and planned. NYCC was successful becuase of transit, not because of an existing village. If MCC was built around Streetsville, I doubt it would be as successful.

I think Hipster Duck's point is that these new "communities" inevitably end up being unintegrated into the larger urban fabric (if there is any to integrate into in the first place) and tend to give off the feel of an enclave-like subdivision. I think he's correct in pointing out that the failures far outnumber the successes.
 
North York Centre is successful because of transit and because it used to be a village...no other suburban area has both features, so no other suburban area has remotely become more urban.

As long as "community" means WASPs, hipsters, yuppies, and...well, just them, no suburban area really has a chance at competing with established inner city areas like the Beach or wherever else. These types of suburban areas are routinely condemned on this forum for little else than a lack of hip restaurants (the only reason North York Centre has restaurants is because of the pre-war retail strip). Does anyone really think "failures" is the right word for them, that they are no better or different than a subdivision full of bungalows? Drop the planning buzzwords, ignore the 'Downtown' or 'Centre' in their name and treat them as what they really are...neighbourhoods. Mel Lastman may have thought MelVille was the centre of the universe, but no one takes him seriously.
 
As long as "community" means WASPs, hipsters, yuppies, and...well, just them, no suburban area really has a chance at competing with established inner city areas like the Beach or wherever else. These types of suburban areas are routinely condemned on this forum for little else than a lack of hip restaurants (the only reason North York Centre has restaurants is because of the pre-war retail strip). Does anyone really think "failures" is the right word for them, that they are no better or different than a subdivision full of bungalows? Drop the planning buzzwords, ignore the 'Downtown' or 'Centre' in their name and treat them as what they really are...neighbourhoods. Mel Lastman may have thought MelVille was the centre of the universe, but no one takes him seriously.

I can't treat MCC or SCC as a 'neighbourhood' because it's really no more than a mall with a cluster of disparate office towers and some condos thrown in. The area around Promenade mall or Sherway Gardens would also be 'neighbourhoods' according to this.

I'm not measuring neighbourhood success on the number of hipster dive bars or yuppie boutiques that can accrue in an area, I'm measuring urbanity on two things only: walkability and integration to an adjacent district. NYCC is relatively walkable and it's integrated by way of a transit line to other walkable neighbourhoods. MCC is barely walkable - there's a Rabba's and a Second Cup that opened just last year - and its integration to other walkable neighbourhoods is somewhat convoluted (you need to know which bus to take and then transfer to the subway once there). SCC is walkable within a very set area and you could argue that the long subway/RT ride provides some level of integration, but the area is hopelessly isolated and dreary.
 
NYCC is also the only one that's anywhere near close to being "finished." There's still greenfields in all the others (except for maybe Etobicoke). This is one case where urban and suburban need to be split up into more qualifiers to accurately describe the areas.
 
North York Centre is successful because of transit and because it used to be a village...no other suburban area has both features, so no other suburban area has remotely become more urban.

Despite Willowdale's history, I don't know how much the "used to be a village" counts here; even as a village/hamlet/whatever, Willowdale was always rather diffuse--I'd say it was defined more by the postwar suburban strips along Yonge, or just by Yonge being Yonge...
 

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