GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[steveintoronto]

Hmmmm. Axle weight vs total weight....

Total weight: For a long train you are right. A huge number of light coaches can make up for a heavy locomotive!

Axle weight: The axle weight is often an important concern, and I should have worded for that too. Locomotives are much heavier than an EMU car, and axle weight can sometimes break things before total weight does...

Even though other factors must apply (wheel profile, limited slip and traction control, for instance) the simplest analogy applies: "All wheel drive".

I must say I was amazed at the degree of thrust to weight ratio those X40s have. No wonder they accelerate like a Jackrabbit. I haven't looked up the competition yet to see how competitive the X40s are to the other makes.

 

[MisterF]

I'm the resident cynic in a number of these forums, and frankly, I don't see any "locking in". I'll believe those funds are disbursed when it actually happens. I can't justify it with reference or facts, but a lot of those 'projections' (manifest as 'promises') are no more solid than anything that's come before. At the very least, it will be so late as to be after the election, not before.

No shortage of 'theories'....very little proof. I'm more assured of seeing the Missing Link started, and if it is, it's going to take a lot more funding from the province than we're led to believe. And it should! When The Missing Link happens, I'll be a lot more amenable to believing other projects will fall into place.

Skepticism is warranted for sure, but there's no reason to believe that the money won't be spent. The first phases of RER - double tracking, new signalling system, grade separations, upgraded stations - are under construction on several lines. I admittedly don't know much about electrification specifically.

While the missing link unlocks a lot of potential for intercity and regional rail, it's not part of the current crop of RER lines.

 

[Palma]

With Davenport's overpass, all this double tracking, new weekend service and Downsview Park it appears the Barrie Line is growing fast. Certainly would be cool to have the first electrified line, intersect with he subway at two points. Or possibly 3?

That would be downsview, caledonia and the 3rs is where exactly? Guess if they ever decide to do something on Lawrence WEst it could be a 4th connection (not subway of course),

 

[smallspy]

That would be downsview, caledonia and the 3rs is where exactly?

Uhh, Union?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[facepalming_brooklynite]

That would be downsview, caledonia and the 3rs is where exactly? Guess if they ever decide to do something on Lawrence WEst it could be a 4th connection (not subway of course),

Uhh, Union?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Bloor & Lansdowne!
https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2016/06/ontario-building-more-go-train-stations-in-west-toronto.html

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This is very simplistic math - a 4000 hp locomotive is about three mw at full throttle. That's roughly equivalent to 2-3 winmills..... the ones that have to turn even though there is sufficient nuclear and hydro power on line. Each of the four reactors at Darlington put out about 800 mw, so a single Go train is lost in the noise.

GO trains don't run at full throttle continuously, and if electric they can feed power back into the grid while braking. And EMU's use less power. So the average load is much lower. Nevertheless, a 70 locomotive fleet all running in peak service would amount to a quarter of a reactor at the most extreme moment.... or a whack of windmills, or as much gas power as Mc Ginty cancelled in Mississauga.

I agree, it's a small fraction of the load represented by autos. Would we be better off taking the capital for GO electrification and just give people electric cars instead? Maybe....it's an interesting question. Getting drivers out of their cars and onto diesel GO trains is still the greatest incremental energy reduction, so maybe more track and more service is better use of the capital.

- Paul

Electric cars change energy use and modality. They don't deal with the gridlock problem.

Where do we expect to see the jump in spending? What projects are coming online that are that much more valuable than current projects? Also how do we see this locking in Elec/RER?

Also remember that we should be differentiating between consists of heavy diesel locomotives w/ unpowered coaches vs. EMUs. The latter eliminates the loco and has more points of traction (potential for less peak power on takeoff), and perhaps less weight overall?

With a total of approx 4000HP traction (MP40) v. 7500HP (ALP46A) v. 13000 HP traction (4X triple X40)

Tractive force due to greater adhesion would be considerably higher with the EMUs.

This is the principle of 'slugs'...the adhesion is distributed:



Slug shown behind a full-sized diesel. Note the cut-down shell of the slug, as it has no prime-mover.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slug_(railroad)

Hmmmm. Axle weight vs total weight....

Total weight: For a long train you are right. A huge number of light coaches can make up for a heavy locomotive!

Axle weight: The axle weight is often an important concern, and I should have worded for that too. Locomotives are much heavier than an EMU car, and axle weight can sometimes break things before total weight does...

Even though other factors must apply (wheel profile, limited slip and traction control, for instance) the simplest analogy applies: "All wheel drive".

I must say I was amazed at the degree of thrust to weight ratio those X40s have. No wonder they accelerate like a Jackrabbit. I haven't looked up the competition yet to see how competitive the X40s are to the other makes.

Skepticism is warranted for sure, but there's no reason to believe that the money won't be spent. The first phases of RER - double tracking, new signalling system, grade separations, upgraded stations - are under construction on several lines. I admittedly don't know much about electrification specifically.

While the missing link unlocks a lot of potential for intercity and regional rail, it's not part of the current crop of RER lines.

That would be downsview, caledonia and the 3rs is where exactly? Guess if they ever decide to do something on Lawrence WEst it could be a 4th connection (not subway of course),

http://www.usrailcar.com/documents/USRailcar-AmericasDMU.pdf

http://www.usrailcar.com/dmu-specs.php
http://www.usrailcar.com/fra-compliance.php

The Dmu's would come from here most likely. I don't know how much they would cost, but I bet its less then what bombardier would do.

 

[ssiguy2]

Very interesting to note that the stations being built are specifically being built with Smart Tracks and it states that Tory's ST will connect 3 major centres.......Markham Centre, Union, and the Pearson area. The last one is the most notable as Tory's Eglinton West ST is long since dead which Tory has accepted and replaced with Eglinton West Crosstown expansion. Does this mean that ST termination at Eglinton has been upgraded to a termination at Malton/HWY 27, Etobicoke North, and even taking it all the way to Pearson as a complete replacement of the UPX. Would be fantastic news if that is the case as ST would offer true rapid transit a TTC prices to an area that has none.........N. Etobicoke North/Humber.

 

[steveintoronto]

Skepticism is warranted for sure, but there's no reason to believe that the money won't be spent. The first phases of RER - double tracking, new signalling system, grade separations, upgraded stations - are under construction on several lines. I admittedly don't know much about electrification specifically.

I'll go even further, the bulk of RER between Bramalea and Union is already extant!

My comment on skepticism is on electrification. If someone can point me to a locked-in supply/build contract to electrify, please do so. I'm looking at the Weston Sub out my window as I type, and can't stop muttering 'waste, waste, waste'.

I say 'lock-in' to RER by planning to run three car trains frequently with F59s *now*, and electrify later, whichever century that might be.

The situation to me is like all the folks bitching about not being able to get their shopping home from the stupidmarket because they're waiting for their electric limousine. They think Chevy won't do...it will do fine, and it's already waiting.

Get legs of RER up and running now. And build on it. THAT will get voters minds believing Godot is on the train...

Edit to Add: Just getting a chance to check your links Den. That company went bankrupt leaving Sound Transit, IIRC, in the lurch, but here's an update:
https://systemicfailure.wordpress.com/2010/02/20/colorado-railcar-not-dead-yet/

I'll check more thoroughly later to see if they're alive or not.

 

[smallspy]

Bloor & Lansdowne!
https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2016/06/ontario-building-more-go-train-stations-in-west-toronto.html

Except that Bloor/Lansdowne is a potential station - funding dependent. The other three are currently in existence, opening shortly, or have funding applied.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[dowlingm]

You don't have to guess how much US Railcar want for DMUs, because it's a Portland report.
https://trimet.org/meetings/board/pdfs/2016-05-25/res-16-05-35.pdf

TriMet has previously sought to purchase additional cars, and had estimated a cost of approximately $8,000,000 for two DMUs. Three recent attempts to procure additional DMUs were unsuccessful. The first attempt to procure vehicles was through an option to a contract held by Sonoma-Marin Area Rapid Transit (SMART). This would have cost TriMet approximately $7,000,000 for two cars, but the manufacturer was unwilling to honor the option for TriMet. The second attempt was through discussions with US Railcar, a new car manufacturer who quoted TriMet a price of $10,000,000 to produce two trailer cars. The third attempt was to purchase two refurbished Budd RDC that became available when a locomotive and passenger car overhaul company in Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada went out of business. TriMet offered $750,000 for the pair, but was outbid.

 

[Allandale25]

Announcement today by the feds. $1.8B for GO RER.

 

[Edward Skira]

Statement

Federal Investment in Transit to Help Continued Transformation of Ontario's GO Network
March 31, 2017

Premier Kathleen Wynne released this statement today following an announcement about Ontario's GO Regional Express Rail (GO RER):

"When it comes to a person's everyday commute, every minute counts. That is why Ontario is undertaking the largest commuter rail transformation in the country. GO RER will provide new travel options for millions of commuters, build 12 new stations, drastically increase the frequency of service, cut travel times and help manage congestion in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area and surrounding communities. It will increase the number of weekly trips across the GO train network from 1,500 today to roughly 6,000 by 2025. And with more people taking transit, we can also reduce greenhouse gas emissions and fight climate change.

Ontario's allocation of $13.5 billion to implement GO Regional Express Rail adds to the $7.8 billion investment for GO network upgrades and the extension of regular train service to Niagara and Bowmanville. This total $21.3 billion transformation of the GO network is creating thousands of jobs, bolstering Ontario's economy, and improving people's quality of life. The GO capital program is the largest commuter rail program in Canada. It is also part of the largest investment in public infrastructure in Ontario's history -- more than $160 billion over 12 years for roads, bridges, transit systems, schools and hospitals. We are building a thriving region that will continue to be a great place to live, work and raise a family.

As I have always said, people are best served when their governments work together. Today, Ontario welcomes the federal government's investment of roughly $1.9 billion in our GO RER project. This federal contribution will help us build new track, upgrade stations and create grade separations along the Kitchener, Barrie and Lakeshore corridors. And because the federal government is making this contribution toward the $13.5 billion Ontario has allocated for GO RER, the province now has the ability to invest even more in other priority transit projects that will improve people's commutes.

In order to get people where they need to go and meet the demands of a growing region it takes all levels of government pulling in the same direction, so I appreciate a federal partner who recognizes the value in building up transit and helping people in their everyday lives."

 

[Northern Light]

Statement

Federal Investment in Transit to Help Continued Transformation of Ontario's GO Network
March 31, 2017

Premier Kathleen Wynne released this statement today following an announcement about Ontario's GO Regional Express Rail (GO RER):

"When it comes to a person's everyday commute, every minute counts. That is why Ontario is undertaking the largest commuter rail transformation in the country. GO RER will provide new travel options for millions of commuters, build 12 new stations, drastically increase the frequency of service, cut travel times and help manage congestion in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area and surrounding communities. It will increase the number of weekly trips across the GO train network from 1,500 today to roughly 6,000 by 2025. And with more people taking transit, we can also reduce greenhouse gas emissions and fight climate change.

Ontario's allocation of $13.5 billion to implement GO Regional Express Rail adds to the $7.8 billion investment for GO network upgrades and the extension of regular train service to Niagara and Bowmanville. This total $21.3 billion transformation of the GO network is creating thousands of jobs, bolstering Ontario's economy, and improving people's quality of life. The GO capital program is the largest commuter rail program in Canada. It is also part of the largest investment in public infrastructure in Ontario's history -- more than $160 billion over 12 years for roads, bridges, transit systems, schools and hospitals. We are building a thriving region that will continue to be a great place to live, work and raise a family.

As I have always said, people are best served when their governments work together. Today, Ontario welcomes the federal government's investment of roughly $1.9 billion in our GO RER project. This federal contribution will help us build new track, upgrade stations and create grade separations along the Kitchener, Barrie and Lakeshore corridors. And because the federal government is making this contribution toward the $13.5 billion Ontario has allocated for GO RER, the province now has the ability to invest even more in other priority transit projects that will improve people's commutes.

In order to get people where they need to go and meet the demands of a growing region it takes all levels of government pulling in the same direction, so I appreciate a federal partner who recognizes the value in building up transit and helping people in their everyday lives."

And because the federal government is making this contribution toward the $13.5 billion Ontario has allocated for GO RER, the province now has the ability to invest even more in other priority transit projects that will improve people's commutes.

What concerns me with the section I bolded is that this money will not be net new to the RER project and there is no indication that it will be used to accelerate timelines.

I'm glad to see the investment, but the lackadaisical approach to delivery/execution has to stop.

Now, that said, if this means the province is ready to spend 1.8B on other priority transit initiatives, that could be quite encouraging. That could, for instance be the provincial share of relief line phase 1; or used to fund the 'missing link' costs.

 

[innsertnamehere]

so essentially the feds are giving $1.9 billion, then letting the province take that extra cash and spend it on more things?

I'm hoping we see more grade separations.

What I'm betting is that the capital funding will be accelerated now.

The province likes to stretch its funding timelines as much as possible, so The 1.8 billion from the feds (which seems more willing to spend quickly) will allow for accelerated work, even if only slightly.

 

[TOareaFan]

For those who use the KW line....the timing of today's announcement is laced with irony.....and a fair bit of skepticism.......this is the date that, by which, the Liberal government had promised evening and weekend service would have commenced.....so it is not clear how spending more money (and as Northern Light pointed out) it is not actually spending more it is just coming from a different pocket) is actually improving our daily lives.......what is the new date for increased service......when will we see new trains operating....it really is not clear......building transit infrastructure with transit billions does not move people....having actual trains with actual operators does......and it really is not clear to me how JT saying to KW....."you know what, we will pay some of what you previously were going to spend" does that at all.