Toronto GO Transit: Davenport Diamond Grade Separation | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[smallspy]

Other question: Has speed of the GO Trains through the section in question been discussed as a part of the consultations? I used to live on Walmer Rd. very close to the CP line and mandated reduction in speeds made a world of difference in terms of noise and physical disruption (and I'm no expert, but one would assume in safety as well).

With the exception of the locomotives, there is a vast difference in weights between freight and passenger equipment. An average freight car can weigh between 30 and 125 tonnes depending on whether it is empty or loaded, while a passenger car isn't going to weigh much more than about 60 tonnes at most. That and the higher speeds that passenger trains generally run at will cause far less vibration transferred to neighbouring properties.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[nfitz]

The trains will be electric after a few years anyway, you will barely notice them go by. Electric trains are very quiet.

And yet when I'm in my basement, I can fee the streetcar go past, despite being 40 metres from the tracks, with two houses in between!

Though on an elevated structure, I'd think that would be less vibration than today.

 

[Allandale25]

Looks like updated and new studies, documents, drawings, and renderings have been posted on the Metrolinx website for the Davenport Grade Separation. There's also another public meeting on April 27th.

 

[mdrejhon]

To save readers time...some selected zooms of the new renderings.

I do hope the mirrored panels will be covered with anti-grafitti finish/films/etc for easy cleaning (...Tresspassers at 4am could end up sneaking into the corridor at either end of the ramp, then walk onto the bridge, and tag by leaning down over the relatively low railing...)

Elevated rail tracks aren't typically salted like Gardiner, so it will "age" more gracefully than the Gardiner did. Well-maintained elevated rail tracks elsewhere look so much better than a similar-age Gardiner. I hope Metrolinx mentions this, as well.

The mirrored panels actually look rather nice, compared to what's there now.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Need some winter scenes next time.

 

[crs1026]

A pet theme of mine - we lost three heritage-quality railway stations (CP West Toronto, CN West Toronto, and CN St Clair Avenue) in the days when the Heritage Preservation process was in its infancy. The razing of the CP West Toronto Depot was one of the seminal events that led to some of today’s heritage laws and standards. I have always wondered why there has never been an attempt to bring this architecture back into the West Toronto area.

Metrolinx is now considering building new GO stations at Bloor/Lansdowne and possibly St Clair - I wonder if they would consider using the architectural template of one of the demolished depots for this station - which might re-inject some of that lost visual heritage back into this community? If they don’t, we may end up with new train stations that look about as interesting as the average fast food restaurant.

Curiously, while since demolished, the St Clair train station was once designated as a heritage structure.

This is something I intend to raise via the Heritage Preservation process and at the public meeting.

- Paul

 

[W. K. Lis]

The old St. Clair railway station:

Honorable mention to Davenport Station:

 

[Adjei]

This looks good.

 

[crs1026]

The public information meeting this evening on this project was lively.

On a high level, the local community is just plain opposed to the elevated option. There were lots of detailed questions - the details of which don't matter, since the responses weren't very good, and just fuelled the residents' dissent. While the more technical speakers did a good job, the overall impression left was that Metrolinx is heavily siloed. Speakers couldn't answer some quite reasonable questions because it was someone else's job.

The one interesting technical revelation was the noise study. It found that the current diamond is as noisy as the elevated trains will be. Close to the diamond, the elevated option actually decreases sound from the present. Further away, the proposed sound walls aren't as effective, however. Bottom line - sound levels will increase with the more frequent diesels, but reduce when electrification happens - which won't be for another ten years.

The new design tweaks, while artsy-creative, did little to hide the bridge, and have some serious defects (such as being highly reflective). The new 360 degree views confirm pretty clearly that the neighbouring streets, especially the new condo's, will be adversely affected (which raises the question, how did a developer get to build next to a rail line? They are very new buildings. And did the buyers really believe the current trains would vanish? Can't blame ML for much of that.)

The residents, who are pretty sophisticated, did pull a few NIMBYesque cheap shots. No one seemed to appreciate that a two-track non-elevated 2WAD line would be pretty messy, too. But more often they raised legitimate holes that ML had missed.

My take away - this thing is intrusive, and might take a gritty neighbourhood that has been improving, and make it a lousy place to live all over again. We haven't made that tradeoff in Toronto, ever. It's not a stretch to look on this as a transit replay of the 1970 Spadina debate.

What's needed is for the Province and the Mayor to make a decision to either do this thing and face the residents' anger, or kill it - but I fear there isn't enough courage for that. The local MPP skated when asked if she would recommend stopping the elevated option. Councillor Bilao was emphatic that she would continue to oppose it. I suspect Metrolinx will go back and try to tinker with the design, which at this point is a bit like trying to polish a cannonball. Around and around we go.

- Paul

 

[BurlOak]

With the Basis line underground or trenchEd, stations at Blood and St. Clair cannot be built. Metrolinx should be focussing on this rather than adding bells and whistles to the elevated tracks that accomplish little more than drive up the cost. Even accelerating the timelines for electrification is prefereable to throwing large sums of money in the way of the aesthetic enhancements that already have bumped the cost up by nearly 50%.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

On a high level, the local community is just plain opposed to the elevated option. There were lots of detailed questions - the details of which don't matter, since the responses weren't very good, and just fuelled the residents' dissent. While the more technical speakers did a good job, the overall impression left was that Metrolinx is heavily siloed. Speakers couldn't answer some quite reasonable questions because it was someone else's job.

This is why noisy and unconstructive NIMBYism sucks. When a group gets loud with entrenched opposition like this, the public sector proponents often sends higher-up honchos to these meetings in the interest of public relations, because they know the group will be taking stock of every response and skew anything they can to use as ammunition. Technical experts who actually know things have a higher probability of providing this ammunition, even though they might have been able to answer more questions, and are sidelined.

 

[crs1026]

Technical experts who actually know things have a higher probability of providing this ammunition, even though they might have been able to answer more questions, and are sidelined.

I thought the meeting's Moderator did a very solid job of remaining professional and tactful in the face of a very determined and hostile audience. Her answers, however, were just too measured and qualified to satisfy anyone. And her description of how many ML departments and projects are simultaneously on this one, and her inability to speak outside of her team's specific mandate, put ML in a very poor light. Left hand, right hand......

The technical guy who won them over did so by blurting out detailed answers without worrying about whether his answer was good news or bad news. The audience appreciated his candour, and clearly trusted his math. He got a lot of bad news across much better that way. I don't know why communications people universally think that the thing to do at the podium is give the polished, evasive answers that slide around all the hard realities. Any group of concerned citizens knows a skating job when they hear one.

The really shameful performance was by the MPP, who gave the usual speech about how she had heard the residents' concerns and would take them back to the Ministers involved - and then refused to commit herself about whether she supported them. Cowardice at its best.

- Paul

 

[Allandale25]

The one interesting technical revelation was the noise study. It found that the current diamond is as noisy as the elevated trains will be. Close to the diamond, the elevated option actually decreases sound from the present. Further away, the proposed sound walls aren't as effective, however. Bottom line - sound levels will increase with the more frequent diesels, but reduce when electrification happens - which won't be for another ten years.

- Paul

I thought it was less than ten years until electrification happens on the Barrie Line? If the Davenport Bridge opens in 2019 or 2020 (earliest construction can start is 2017 according to page 33 here), and electrification starts in 2023/2024 (according to this post and chart from Steve Munro - data he says he got from Metrolinx), then it's less than 10 years (in theory). If it was 10 years until electrification, that would be 2029 or 2030.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

My take away - this thing is intrusive, and might take a gritty neighbourhood that has been improving, and make it a lousy place to live all over again. We haven't made that tradeoff in Toronto, ever. It's not a stretch to look on this as a transit replay of the 1970 Spadina debate.

That's overblown - Spadina involves levelling neigbhourhoods along a major arterial; this is elevating a railway line that already exist in what's basically the backside of a deindustrializing neighbourhood. Huge difference.

AoD

 

[salsa]

That's overblown - Spadina involves levelling neigbhourhoods along a major arterial; this is elevating a railway line that already exist in what's basically the backside of a deindustrilaizing neighbourhood. Huge difference.

AoD

If we we are building a transportation system to serve Toronto, the Davenport bridge is a good place to start. But if we are building a transportation system to serve the NIMBYs, the Davenport bridge would be a good place to stop.