Gerrard India Bazaar

[Eug]

"Other cities" is a patronizing way to describe the ex-boroughs and 905, no? After all, that *is* where East Indians have tended to gravitate over the past generation, and in a manner that's left their former inner 416 centre of gravity in the dust. You can say the same about the Chinese relative to Chinatown, or the Poles relative to Roncy.

That said, I also agree that looking down upon the pre-latest-waves-of-immigration culinary status quo is a little patronizingly harsh. Like, whatever the quality of fare you can get at T&T or Pacific Mall or wherever, there's still nothing like a good old fashioned North American Chop Suey joint...

Do any chop suey joints still exist in Chinatown downtown? Ironically, I see them outside downtown, but they are uncommon in the core. Most downtown have been replaced by Vietnamese, northern Chinese, or maybe updated southern Chinese restaurants or whatever, with food quality that's about 10X better.

I'm not sure the same can be said about Indiatown on Gerrard. Much of the food seems to have stayed similar to when I first moved to Toronto, almost 20 years ago.

BTW, did East Indians actually live near Gerrard Indiatown in the past?

 

[nfitz]

"Other cities" is a patronizing way to describe the ex-boroughs and 905, no?

I wasn't referring to any other boroughs (though I don't know why you pluralize it ... I'm only aware of one former borough in the entire nation - East York). I was simply referring to Streetsville.

After all, that *is* where East Indians have tended to gravitate over the past generation, and in a manner that's left their former inner 416 centre of gravity in the dust.

I do actually spend a fair bit of time in Streetsville - and I really can't say I've seen a lot of East Indians there.

And my comments had nothing to do with where East Indians might be ... it was simply referencing that this was a thread on neighbourhood near Gerrard and Coxwell ... and has no relation to restaurants in Streetsville, Markham, or Bangkok.

there's still nothing like a good old fashioned North American Chop Suey joint...

I'm afraid I'm ignorant here ... what is a North American Chop Suey joint?

 

[Eug]

It's typically a North American Chinese restaurant that serves only Americanized/Canadianized Chinese food. This type of food generally isn't eaten by North American Chinese, cuz it's considered to be crap.

These days it's pretty hard to find a restaurant like this in the Toronto downtown core, since most non-Chinese downtowners consider it to be crap too. (Actually, many younger Toronto downtowners may not even have had chop suey joint fare before, since it's harder to find than before, although some mall food courts may have similar food.) However, you can find these in places like Barrie or Ajax. You can also find them in the less well-to-do areas of the outskirts of Toronto.

Chop suey is actually is a name for some dishes, (although mainly only in North America) but I think the best example of chop suey joint fare is actually something like sweet and sour chicken balls.

To put it perspective, a chop suey joint for Chinese food is like what East Side Marios is to Italian food, but without the cleanliness of a large chain.

 

[adma]

I wasn't referring to any other boroughs (though I don't know why you pluralize it ... I'm only aware of one former borough in the entire nation - East York).

The other outer components of Metro Toronto were "boroughs" from 1966 until, one by one, they elevated themselves to "cities" from the end of the 70s onward. East York was the only holdout (and latterly took advantage of it through its "only borough" boosterism)

 

[adma]

It's typically a North American Chinese restaurant that serves only Americanized/Canadianized Chinese food. This type of food generally isn't eaten by North American Chinese, cuz it's considered to be crap.

While I wouldn't consider it to be "high cuisine", I'd be more sympathetic t/w it as an indigenous c20 North American phenomenon, and in a way that--well--transcends modern-day culinary snobbery, no different from drive-in burger joints and all that.

To put it perspective, a chop suey joint for Chinese food is like what East Side Marios is to Italian food, but without the cleanliness of a large chain.

Or more to my point, it's like 50s/60s-style down-home North American pizza joints, the gooey greasy sort that'd offend the Neopolitan or Libretto-loving purists. And when it comes to the purists...that's their problem. And when it comes to "large chains": in a certain frame of mind, better those old-school chop suey/N American Chinese takeout "indies" than Ho-Lee Chow. Indeed, one of the best places for this old-fashioned "Chinese takeout" is none other than Rob Ford's fave, the Mayflower out in Royal York Plaza...

 

[nfitz]

It's typically a North American Chinese restaurant that serves only Americanized/Canadianized Chinese food. This type of food generally isn't eaten by North American Chinese, cuz it's considered to be crap.

Ah ... okay. I've seen such places in smaller towns ... particularly in Saskatchewan and Alberta ... and more often a few decades ago in smaller Ontario towns. I seem to recall those hard crunch noodle things ... I'm not familiar with the phrase though. Normally small mom-and-pop operations.

Still I'm not sure why when discussing the problems with this strip that Udupi Palace has been highlighted. They might not have the best dosa on the planet ... but they do have dosa, and personally I enjoy it. Off hand, I can't think of any of the other places even having dosa (though I'm probably wrong ...). The menus at many of the locations do seem somewhat repetitive, and the quality at some seems to have slipped.

And they all seem to pass KA1 test of it being quality food because most of the clientèle is East Indian (not sure I personally believe in that standard).

 

[Jonny5]

Gourmet "Westernized Chinese food" is a apparently a hot trend in restaurants in the US right now.

Also, never say North American Chinese don't eat this food. They do and they like it. You can see them in mall food courts or in line at The Mandarin for more chicken balls.
It's also often better tasting than crappy "authentic Chinese", like you get from say T&T, the worst Chinese food in the country.

 

[Eug]

While I wouldn't consider it to be "high cuisine", I'd be more sympathetic t/w it as an indigenous c20 North American phenomenon, and in a way that--well--transcends modern-day culinary snobbery, no different from drive-in burger joints and all that.



Or more to my point, it's like 50s/60s-style down-home North American pizza joints, the gooey greasy sort that'd offend the Neopolitan or Libretto-loving purists. And when it comes to the purists...that's their problem. And when it comes to "large chains": in a certain frame of mind, better those old-school chop suey/N American Chinese takeout "indies" than Ho-Lee Chow. Indeed, one of the best places for this old-fashioned "Chinese takeout" is none other than Rob Ford's fave, the Mayflower out in Royal York Plaza...

Well, I like the all-dressed pizzas from Regina, which means 9 or 10 toppings, 7 of which are meat. These Italian restaurants are usually run by Greeks.

However, most chop suey is just garbage food. It kinda reminds me of the Vietnamese restaurant I went to in Regina. I ordered the pho, and got what tasted like pho but with these massive cubes of beef in it. The cubes of beef tasted like rubber. I asked them why they made it like this and they said it was to cater to the local palate, because people in Saskatchewan like a lot of meat. I then asked if they asked the locals if that's what they wanted and if they had ever tried just serving regular pho. Their answer to both questions was no. No wonder they weren't doing very well.

I had some friends who weren't very culinarily (is that a word?) adventurous and I took them for some pho. They liked it, but said they'd prefer more meat in the meal. So I got them some pork spring rolls, and suggested the vietnamese porkchops. They were very happy with that.

You don't have to be purist or adventuresome to enjoy good food. Unfortunately, chop suey joints generally just made bad food... unless you asked them to cook what they would actually eat themselves.

Unfortunately, in my experience, much of the Gerrard Indiatown is like that. I've tried a bunch of restaurants there which all taste the same, and not particularly good. Any advice as to specific restaurants there that stand out with well-prepared and not overly greasy food would be appreciated. It's a short trip for me to get to Gerrard, but it's quite a jaunt for me to get to Mississauga. And I still am not sure what Indian restaurant is at Queen and Beverly.

 

[KA1]

And they all seem to pass KA1 test of it being quality food because most of the clientèle is East Indian (not sure I personally believe in that standard).

I refuse to be provoked into making any additional comments. Time to move on, perhaps, to another thread.

Peace. Shalom.

 

[toraerach]

BTW, did East Indians actually live near Gerrard Indiatown in the past?

I believe I read somewhere that the South Asian-ification of the commercial strip here started with the opening of a Bollywood cinema in the 1970s. Over time, other establishments opened up on Gerrard to cater to the South Asians drawn down there by the cinema. As far as I know, there was never a huge South Asian population in the residential areas surrounding it. Interestingly, according to the City's Neighbourhood Profile for Greenwood-Coxwell, the area's South Asian population has increased both in hard numbers and as a percentage of the whole in both periods from 1996-2001 and 2001-2006. They still only represent about 10% of the population, and the neighbourhood stretches all the way from Milverton in the North to Eastern in the South (so they're not necessarily living directly in the Gerrard area).

Interestingly, the 2006 census saw the decline of people in the neighbourhood who spoke Hindi and Pashto as home languages, while Urdu and Punjabi-speaking households increased. It's hard to track further changes in the South Asian community though as the 2001 neighbourhood profile recorded the numbers for "East Indians," while the 2006 profile breaks this down into "Indians" and "Pakistanis." This might not be so much a typical gentrification story as much as it is the result of the diversification of the GTA's South Asian community - i.e. Indian-origin Punjabi and Gujarati-speaking Sikhs/Hindus in Brampton/Mississauga/Etobicoke, Tamils in Scarbrorough, Urdu-speaking Muslims in East York, Bengali-speakers in the East End, etc. Though of course, as with any ethnic group, there are members of each scattered throughout the GTA in various concentrations. However, each of these communities are now large enough to have their own centres not necessarily relying on one shared commercial strip. Think of the parallel to the GTA's Chinese population, which has seen the growth of distinct neighbourhoods of Cantonese-speakers, Mandarin-speakers, Vietnamese Chinese, Hong Kong Chinese, etc. The Gerrard Bazaar may be becoming a more local strip serving the area's South Asian community instead of a regional centre for the entirety of the GTA's South Asian communities. That said, this doesn't mean the Bazaar's days are numbered by any means.

Just as an aside, I wonder how "white" (read "WASP") gentrification remains in Toronto, or how long that will last.

 

[Eug]

Interesting, thx.

BTW, I don't see gentrification of the downtown kind as being a "white" vs. "colour" thing, but more of a (relatively) young up-and-coming thing. Given the ethnic mix these days in Toronto, with a lot of 2nd and 3rd generation non-whites being well-educated and middle class, that's not surprising. To put it another way, the ethnic tokenism seen in hip clothing commercials may actually be somewhat accurate for the Toronto gentrifiers in 2011.

Furthermore, I've noticed that some areas desperately in "need" of gentrifying (or at least in need of sprucing up, if you don't like the Starbucks type of gentrification) are predominantly Caucasian anyway.

 

[adma]

Incidentally, if you want the ultimate in Toronto chop-suey-house visual icons, just consider this on Kingston Rd in the upper Beach, betwixt Little India and Eug's domain

So, ultimately, old-fashioned chop suey joint fare may be "crap food" in the same sense that that is, by 2011 standards, "crap signage".

 

[adma]

Though actually, "chop suey joint" may be metaphorically lowballing it re the culinary eclipse of Little India; perhaps the more accurate analogy might be with old-Chinatown icons of "high dining" like the Nanking or Lichee Gardens (or, by extension, uptown Chinese-food-as-Jewish-dining institutions like China House, House Of Chan, etc). All of which may seem like quaintly archaic fortune-cookie stuff to newer waves/generations--yet to dismiss it outright strikes me as culinary cultural arrogance. Look: even today's thoughtful defenders of such olde-fashioned N American Chinese cuisine, high or low, eat-in or take-out, aren't pretending it's "authentic Chinese"--heck, the advent of multicultural culinary authenticity gives such defenders all the more fuel to properly contextualize it in the name of embracing it...

 

[Eug]

I've been to House of Chan. It's awful. Well, it has good steak, but everything else in the place is total crap IMO.

The people who I know who frequented the place go there because of the steak.

 

[adma]

Which indeed, is how House Of Chan, esp., has evolved--into a nominally "Chinese" restaurant that actually specializes in steaks.

More often than not, whether Chinese or Indian, what plagues these old eateries is the kind of tired blood and inertia that undermines any "old school North American" appeal they might otherwise have...