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"Downtown Core Line" - Possible Alignments?

What is your prefere alignment for a new E/W subway through Downtown


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Take it from someone who lives South of Front: The majority of people who own a car is because of groceries and long distance driving. Quite a few dont own a car and use the TTC when its practable. Check out the streetcars along Queens Quay during rush hour: There aboustely packed. Running it on Front or South of it would do a ton for relieving the pressure on the streetcars, as well as adding a ton more potential customers who walk or take a taxi to work. Also add in the trip generator that the Skydome and if possible Exhibition would add and it just makes sense to do.

Am I the only one that sees this type of suggestion as madness? We're talking about providing an alternative to commuters to get to work downtown without using Yonge (primary function), play and shopping (secondary).

Now there are people that would suggest putting it even further south, south of Front even, just to bring service to a few condos on the waterfront? The same condos which are or will be served by LRT operated in PROW? Can they not operate as feeders into the DRL like every other north-south bus that empties into Bloor?

To relieve the Queens Quay streetcar? Why? What? On the list of streetcar lines that need relief did someone forget to put King or Queen on that list?
 
Am I the only one that sees this type of suggestion as madness? We're talking about providing an alternative to commuters to get to work downtown without using Yonge (primary function), play and shopping (secondary).

Now there are people that would suggest putting it even further south, south of Front even, just to bring service to a few condos on the waterfront? The same condos which are or will be served by LRT operated in PROW? Can they not operate as feeders into the DRL like every other north-south bus that empties into Bloor?

To relieve the Queens Quay streetcar? Why? What? On the list of streetcar lines that need relief did someone forget to put King or Queen on that list?

No, you're not the only one
 
It's not a perfect comparison because New York has express trains whereas Toronto doesn't. A typical subway trip in New York involves boarding at a local station, transferring to an express train at the first opportunity, spending 90% of your trip on an express train, then transferring back to a local train to reach your destination.

Consider traveling from lower Manhattan to 125th St on the East Side line, which spans the same distance as Union Station to Sheppard. In Toronto, there are 14 stops along the way, but in New York, there are only 8 stops. Why? Express trains. Note that the local train stops 22 times on the same trip.

There is nothing wrong with Toronto's downtown station spacing, however the Yonge subway is screaming for express trains. If that was the case, then an additional 10 midblock stations could be added between Eglinton and Finch to improve access.

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Oh, the cost! Twinning Yonge and adding ten more local stations.... what, $10 billion?

Of course, it would be a great idea, and something that probably should be done with BD at some point as well.
 
And locating the line along Wellington will also attract a lot of ridership aside from those heading for the financial district. What's your point? ......

You still haven't provided any links that show any developments on Queen that beat out what Waterfront Toronto has planned along the water.

I'm not going to spend anytime digging up links to future developments on Queen, as my views are based on how Queen currently exists today and the development I see happening right now on Queen. Those planned developments along the waterfront are not necessarily set in stone. The city's plan for the waterfront is a contentious political issue which can be filibustered or changed significantly. My 'point' that you asked me for, is that Queen is historically seen as the core of Toronto and an active area of the city. The current development there and the current transit pattern along Queen Street already justify the need for the DRL to run on Queen. That existing transit pattern will compliment the DRL well. The existing transit use will only increase in the 10 years or more that it will take before we see the completion of the DRL. The area of Queen/Bathurst to Queen/Pape has some of the oldest buildings in the city. These areas are due for a renewal process which will happen regardless of the DRL and independent of political involvement. Those old buildings will be renovated or torn down and rebuilt with higher density modern structures. The Queen area will accept this gentrification along that corridor and the city will allow for the further development of this corridor. While it's a historic area, the city still needs to allow for modernization and at a minimum it has to allow for natural growth. When I look at those areas of Queen Street it reminds me of Astoria and other areas in the borough of Queens NYC which are serviced by numerous subways. Those areas of NYC, just like our Queen Street, have a continuous block-to-block stretch of mid-size buildings which justify the need for a subway. If the subway were to go along Queen, the streetcar could be replaced with a non-articulated bus route, just like the bus that runs on Yonge Street. This un-cluttering of the street level would make Queen more attractive to more people and more development.

Every Thursday evening between April and September I head down to Sunnyside beach for dragonboat practice. We practice along the shore from there to Ontario Place and back. We also race out of Marilyn Bell /Ontario Place, and Center Island twice a year. Other then the cars on Lakeshore, there isn't much going on near Ontario Place or the Ex relatively speaking when compared to that same stretch on Queen Street. I ride transit to get to practice and I ride it to get back. I see the amount of riders who board and exit streetcars at Ronce /King/ Queen. IMO I do not see either the current development or the current transit use south-east of that intersection that compares to the area east along Queen. I can maybe accept that the DRL would run under King from Ronce, as it's a natural replacement for the 504. But there is absolutely not enough density south of King that warrants a subway. I cannot imagine that in 10-15 years the situation will change drastically to the point where Queen will be overtaken in regards to development by Lakeshore or the Rail lands.

The same goes for the west, as the closest comparable would be the 72 from Pape to Union. I've used it along the Esplanade and the ridership is very light along that area. It only picks up as it reaches Eastern and more so when it reaches Queen. Even it does cost less for us to use rail land, which I doubt, then I'm more then willing to see it cost more for it to be placed under the best street. And that in my view is Queen from Ronce to Carlaw/Pape.
 
True enough, but regardless of zoning, there are trends in these areas like single professionals buying up large houses, small, but well-off, families taking over all of what was a sub-divided house and/or large Portugease families moving to the 'burbs to have their home taken over by a gay male professional couple.

Thats a lot of generalizations
 
Are single professionals into buying large houses? Most people I know want condos/lofts. People who want larger homes generally have a kid or two and want access to good schools, rec centres, etc.

I bought a semi in the upper Beaches. Yeah it has 3 bedrooms, but I bought it inplace of a condo as I like the backyard and patio. I know others who did the same. Rowhouses in the side streets along Queen west are very sought after by single or newly married couples
 
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^
Oh, the cost! Twinning Yonge and adding ten more local stations.... what, $10 billion?

Of course, it would be a great idea, and something that probably should be done with BD at some point as well.

I would think that along with the two new tracks an express line on Yonge would consist of 6 stations or 7 max. Finch (or whatever the start of the line is), Sheppard, Eglinton, St. Clair, Bloor, Queen (DRL) and Union
 
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Just a thought, not sure how realistic it is.

I don't believe it matters so much what the exact alignment is, only where the entrances/exits are. So for example, it might be cheaper/easier to build the physical line on Richmond but at each station there would be exits onto not only Richmond but Queen as well. The subway can then have the psychological appearance of servicing a major street (in this example, Queen) without having to tear up the infrastructure on an already very busy road. You'd end up with <100m tunnels that would link to the major intersections to the stations, making connections between the streetcar and subway easier as well.

Now obviously one could say "well, why can't people just walk above ground for such a short distance? Why spend that much money on something unnecessary?" Well you're right. It isn't necessary to have entrances/exits on different streets. My argument is that roads like Adelaide and Richmond aren't significant avenues for pedestrian traffic, but they're perfect for putting the subway under. If you put an entrance to the subway on a busier road, people are more likely to see it and consider using it. That seems stupid to us because we all use transit as a first choice, but it would make the DRL even more convenient if passengers can pop up from underground right at their desired location instead of a block away.

Again, just throwing it out there to be banged around a bit.

EDIT: I'd imagine for Richmond you'd have exits on Queen, for Adelaide you'd have exits on king and for Wellington you could have either Front or King (or dare I say both?)
 
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Richmond doesnt run as far as Queen on either side. That would also make the stations unnessarily larger then they need to be.

I think the line can be built under Queen with Richmond being used as a bypass for traffic during the construction.The KPMG buildings should be done in a year and the condtruction mess that currently is Bay/Adelaide and Bay/Richmond should be over by then
 
I would think that along with the two new tracks an express line on Yonge would consist of 6 stations or 7 max. Finch (or whatever the start of the line is), Sheppard, Eglinton, St. Clair, Bloor, Queen (DRL) and Union

How about an express line with stops at Hwy 7, Finch, Sheppard, Union. Not as good as having stops at Eglinton and Bloor, too -- maybe we can add them? -- but I know where you can find a line like this cheap.
 
I would think that along with the two new tracks an express line on Yonge would consist of 6 stations or 7 max. Finch (or whatever the start of the line is), Sheppard, Eglinton, St. Clair, Bloor, Queen (DRL) and Union


In a way, Yonge already has a westerly relief line - the Spadina line. It's done a fair job of absorbing a large number of riders coming from the west and northwest. As intensity around Yonge increases, clearly an easterly relief line becomes more and more viable to absorb the riders coming from the east and northeast.

Instead of building 2 more tracks around an existing corridor, the money would be much better spent on developing a new corridor ie a northerly extension of the DRL up Don Mills or Vic Park
 
In a way, Yonge already has a westerly relief line - the Spadina line. It's done a fair job of absorbing a large number of riders coming from the west and northwest. As intensity around Yonge increases, clearly an easterly relief line becomes more and more viable to absorb the riders coming from the east and northeast.

Instead of building 2 more tracks around an existing corridor, the money would be much better spent on developing a new corridor ie a northerly extension of the DRL up Don Mills or Vic Park

I so agree. A DRL that only goes as far north as Bloor/Danforth will do nothing to help the residents of midtown who currently cannot board a soutbound train at Eglinton or Davisville
 
Richmond doesnt run as far as Queen on either side. That would also make the stations unnessarily larger then they need to be.

Richmond doesn't need to run as long as Queen so long as it runs parallelthrough the downtown core which is where the DRL is going... so I don't see where your point comes into play really.

Why would the stations be larger as well? The stations can be a closet really.
I'm only suggesting a tunnel that would be shorter than the one at Spadina station that would link the stations to the busier street.
 
Richmond doesn't need to run as long as Queen so long as it runs parallelthrough the downtown core which is where the DRL is going... so I don't see where your point comes into play really.

Why would the stations be larger as well? The stations can be a closet really.
I'm only suggesting a tunnel that would be shorter than the one at Spadina station that would link the stations to the busier street.

Richmond doest go as far as Queen where it ends I believe at Bathurst. Ronce is alot further west. Same in the east where Richmond begins as an off ramp for the DVP. It still needs to cross the DOn and travel further east to Pape.

Richmond is also a pretty busy street for cars. And it could get even busier if the Gardiner is torn down near Jarvis. Construction there is not by default any less easier then on Queen. While Queen could be torn up with traffic and buses diverted to Richmond and then to Shutter/Dundas, car traffic from The DVP can't easily be diverted to another street.

The stations would not be larger, but their walkways from Queen to Richmond would be larger. You'd also have to go under private property with the tunnels. I like the layouts of the stations under Yonge, south of Bloor. A mere few steps and you're on the platform.
 
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