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Despite what Ford says The Streetcar in Toronto is here to stay.

CDL.TO said:
It's a 4km long loop, making it only 2km end-to-end. Seriously.

Someone pointed out that if you do the math for the Atlanta case, if you get to the streetcar stop and the streetcar isn't there, you're always better off simply walking rather than waiting.
Click to expand...

That was exactly my experience. The Atlanta Streetcar might get a few more white people and tourists on transit, but that's about it.
 
CDL.TO said:
It's a 4km long loop, making it only 2km end-to-end. Seriously.

Someone pointed out that if you do the math for the Atlanta case, if you get to the streetcar stop and the streetcar isn't there, you're always better off simply walking rather than waiting.
Click to expand...

It almost seems like a new version of a heritage streetcar line, more for tourists than for actually getting around.

You can see some of it on Google Street View, since some of the photos were taken when the line had just been built and some before:

http://goo.gl/maps/vT3df



Like the hydrogen-powered streetcars of Aruba: http://www.arubaports.com/main/in-and-around-our-port/
 
ShonTron said:
Atlanta's new streetcar has larger bi-articulated Siemens S70 cars that are used by bonafide light rail systems in San Diego, Twin Cities, Houston, Portland, Salt Lake City and in Paris.

I rode Atlanta's streetcar a few weeks ago. I was not impressed. I'm not that impressed by most new US streetcar projects; they are usually slow downtown circulators, rather than true transit services.
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Nor am I.

Why are the Americans building so many streetcar lines? Does this have anything to do with stimulus money from the recession? Or perhaps the planners wanted to go with LRT, but opposition from drivers forced them to go the streetcars?
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Nor am I.

Why are the Americans building so many streetcar lines? Does this have anything to do with stimulus money from the recession? Or perhaps the planners wanted to go with LRT, but opposition from drivers forced them to go the streetcars?
Click to expand...

I think it may have something to do with the American lip service to "Main Street" and "Small Town America". Of course, many of the people who espouse that are the ones who shop at the Wal Mart on the edge of town. Streetcars are seen as a return to the "good ol days", so cities can claim that they're supporting their cores if they build streetcar lines, even if they're actually of very limited use.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Nor am I.

Why are the Americans building so many streetcar lines? Does this have anything to do with stimulus money from the recession? Or perhaps the planners wanted to go with LRT, but opposition from drivers forced them to go the streetcars?
Click to expand...

Well it's supposed to "spur development".

Personally, I think transit should be about actually moving people, and that real transit that's useful fast and reliable is the best way to encourage development. Not transit lines that look cool but are too slow & short to be useful to anyone.

When I argue in favour of things like at-grade LRT on Eglinton East, I always talk about things like: speed, capacity, reliability, actually moving people effectively. I don't talk about urban design or encouraging development or sprouting cafes & yoga shops. I do think those things can happen, but they're a secondary benefit to the main job of transit.
 
ehlow said:
Well it's supposed to "spur development".

Personally, I think transit should be about actually moving people, and that real transit that's useful fast and reliable is the best way to encourage development. Not transit lines that look cool but are too slow & short to be useful to anyone.

When I argue in favour of things like at-grade LRT on Eglinton East, I always talk about things like: speed, capacity, reliability, actually moving people effectively. I don't talk about urban design or encouraging development or sprouting cafes & yoga shops. I do think those things can happen, but they're a secondary benefit to the main job of transit.
Click to expand...

In a big city like Toronto, that has plenty of underused land in the vicinity of existing subway stations, one can't expect growth to occur automatically once an LRT line, streetcars, or any other transit form is built. The focus should be on serving the existing transit riders better, with local growth being a secondary goal.

However, the situation may be different in much smaller cities that currently have no decent transit system at all; perhaps just a handful of infrequent bus routes. In that case, even a short mixed-traffic streetcar line may anchor growth; since there are no other anchors.
 
Rail systems do tend to be better at spurring development than busses. I suppose it's a psychological thing. Rail is viewed as more permanent, whereas a bus can be taken away without much effort. So I'd expect the streetcar to shape development of the areas over the coming decades.

Of course, that's assumig that they'll be development in these cities in the coming decades. That isn't rxac a safe assumption to make. Not all cities are as fortunate as our city, who has developments that would be newsworthy in most other municipalities announced on a regular basis.
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
Nor am I.

Why are the Americans building so many streetcar lines? Does this have anything to do with stimulus money from the recession? Or perhaps the planners wanted to go with LRT, but opposition from drivers forced them to go the streetcars?
Click to expand...

How much of it is building streetcars rather than urban LRT?
 
If you look back a few decades, we were pretty close to eliminating them, as most other cities did. Thank heavens we didn't - one more thing to love about Toronto.

I wonder if we were like Kansas City, or Cincinatti, and were now bringing streetcars back from nothingness.....what would our first route be? Now there's a topic for the fantasy map thread.

- Paul
 
the lemur said:
How much of it is building streetcars rather than urban LRT?
Click to expand...

There's a lot of real streetcar lines and a lot of them have been badly botched, notably Washington DC.
Most are single line developments the wind through neighbourhoods where development pressure was already high.
They may be moderately successful with ridership for now. These cities had free cash thrown at them and grabbed on a trend with little planning. They put no effort into looking at long term operating and capital costs. In 20-30 years when they have to start looking at replacing rails and vehicles they will find they have no money to do it, and they may end up abandoning them again.
 
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