Despite what Ford says The Streetcar in Toronto is here to stay.

[ShonTron]

Atlanta's new streetcar has larger bi-articulated Siemens S70 cars that are used by bonafide light rail systems in San Diego, Twin Cities, Houston, Portland, Salt Lake City and in Paris.

I rode Atlanta's streetcar a few weeks ago. I was not impressed. I'm not that impressed by most new US streetcar projects; they are usually slow downtown circulators, rather than true transit services. Cincinnati's project still under construction is very similar to that in Atlanta. I wrote about my visit to four US cities that are building, or opened, streetcar routes on Spacing and in my own blog.

I've also rode streetcars in Kenosha, Seattle, Portland, New Orleans (of which the St. Charles Line is original), Memphis and legacy lines: the F Line in San Francisco, the 15 Girard in Philadelphia, and the Green Line and Ashmont-Mattapan lines in Boston.

http://spacing.ca/toronto/2015/01/20/new-american-streetcar-visit-detroit-cincinnati-atlanta-tampa/

Atlanta Streetcar by Sean_Marshall, on Flickr

 

[W. K. Lis]

Melbourne, Australia ordered 50 Bombardier Flexity Swift trams, with an option to purchase a further 100. Ten were received by 2014, with the all 50 in to be in service by 2018.

 

[ehlow]

^ Vehicles look good, street looks good. I like that it's a tram-only lane and that there's a slightly raised platform (like our St Clair or Spadina stops).

Of course our new ones look good too. If only we could get more of them.

 

[Rainforest]

A lot of those new streetcars in mixed traffic, while they look cool, are extremely short, extremely slow, and don't have much ridership. Unlike Melbourne or Toronto where they actually operate as useful & well used services.

They also don't have large vehicles like we will with the new streetcars, or operate in multi car trains like in LA's LRT: a key advantage of using railed vehicles.

Also building a brand new streetcar line in mixed traffic like many US cities are doing doesn't make sense to me. If you're spending all that money on tracks & new vehicles, then at least give it a ROW.

Light rail is the way to go in my opinion, with large trains going fast.

Is there any U.S. city comparable to Toronto in size, that is adding a new mixed-traffic streetcar line?

For large cities, new mixed-traffic streetcar lines do not make sense (maybe, except some short extensions to the existing lines).

But for a small, compact city with limited auto traffic, even a mixed-traffic streetcar may be good enough.

 

[ehlow]

Is there any U.S. city comparable to Toronto in size, that is adding a new mixed-traffic streetcar line?

For large cities, new mixed-traffic streetcar lines do not make sense (maybe, except some short extensions to the existing lines).

But for a small, compact city with limited auto traffic, even a mixed-traffic streetcar may be good enough.

I'm under the impression that Washington DC's new streetcar lines are mixed traffic (correct me if I'm wrong). Washington is roughly the same size as Toronto.

Seattle is a much smaller city than Toronto, but reading about the South Lake Union streetcar it doesn't seem useful at all. 2km length? 2600 riders a day?

 

[nfitz]

I'm under the impression that Washington DC's new streetcar lines are mixed traffic (correct me if I'm wrong).

Correct.

Seattle is a much smaller city than Toronto, but reading about the South Lake Union streetcar it doesn't seem useful at all. 2 km length? 2600 riders a day?

1,300 riders per kilometre isn't bad. Sure, it's short, but it's the first piece. The First Hill streetcar opens soon, adding another 4 km with another 0.7 km opening after that, and more lines and connections planned.

Seattle is smaller than Toronto, with 3.5 million in the metro area. That's smaller than the 6 million or so in the Toronto metro area - but not a small city.

 

[junctionist]

Some streetcar lines in the US seem to be about creating an upscale city district more than anything. Whether in the US or in Toronto, streetcars make particular streets seem more important, unique and valuable.

 

[JGHali]

I know I've always felt very upscale getting of the Carlton car at Parliament.

 

[44 North]

Also building a brand new streetcar line in mixed traffic like many US cities are doing doesn't make sense to me. If you're spending all that money on tracks & new vehicles, then at least give it a ROW.

Light rail is the way to go in my opinion, with large trains going fast.

I guess many say something similar about TO: If we're spending all that money on SELRT, FWLRT, and Crosstown East - why not grade-separate for real speed? Although much of LA's system is LRT-based, a bigger effort was put into grade-separating than in TO. Transit City routes (aside from SLRT and Crosstown tunnel) are all limited by the road's speed limit.

Some streetcar lines in the US seem to be about creating an upscale city district more than anything. Whether in the US or in Toronto, streetcars make particular streets seem more important, unique and valuable.

Exactly. It seems many new US streetcar lines are about development, revitalizing downtowns, and improving property values. Unfortunately in Toronto there are some locations where even downtown streetcar proposals have been downgraded to BRT (i.e - East Bayfront). Somewhat irksome when you consider how important the East Bayfront and future waterfront arguably is, or that other parts of the region are going big with subways.

 

[ehlow]

I guess many say something similar about TO: If we're spending all that money on SELRT, FWLRT, and Crosstown East - why not grade-separate for real speed? Although much of LA's system is LRT-based, a bigger effort was put into grade-separating than in TO. Transit City routes (aside from SLRT and Crosstown tunnel) are all limited by the road's speed limit.

Say whaaat?? That's so completely different. These US streetcar systems are in mixed traffic & as slow as buses. The Toronto LRTs have their own lanes and are way faster than the buses they replace (22-25km/h). Not to mention Eglinton is more than half in a tunnel, averaging 28km/h vs. Bloor subway at 31km/h.

The Toronto LRTs run 2-3 car trains at 60-90 meter trains. The US systems I'm criticizing don't take advantage of rail trains, they have small vehicles that don't run in trains.

In Toronto's case you get a huge reliability, speed and capacity improvement over mixed traffic local buses. The systems I'm criticizing don't have any reliability, speed, or capacity improvements over a normal bus line.

My original statement was that I personally think any new streetcar system should have at minimum a private ROW, which is a key benefit. Transit City LRTs have a private ROW.

 

[salsa]

Say whaaat?? That's so completely different. These US streetcar systems are in mixed traffic & as slow as buses. The Toronto LRTs have their own lanes and are way faster than the buses they replace (22-25km/h). Not to mention Eglinton is more than half in a tunnel, averaging 28km/h vs. Bloor subway at 31km/h.

The Toronto LRTs run 2-3 car trains at 60-90 meter trains. The US systems I'm criticizing don't take advantage of rail trains, they have small vehicles that don't run in trains.

In Toronto's case you get a huge reliability, speed and capacity improvement over mixed traffic local buses. The systems I'm criticizing don't have any reliability, speed, or capacity improvements over a normal bus line.

You're comparing streetcars to LRTs.

 

[44 North]

@ehlow
Maybe you're right. I guess I thought more of these new US small streetcar lines were in-median than mixed-traffic operation. Or rather, their routes were predominantly in-median than mixed-traffic. Maybe I'm wrong. I assumed very few cities would build anything for mixed traffic these days.

 

[the lemur]

Is there any U.S. city comparable to Toronto in size, that is adding a new mixed-traffic streetcar line?

For large cities, new mixed-traffic streetcar lines do not make sense (maybe, except some short extensions to the existing lines).

But for a small, compact city with limited auto traffic, even a mixed-traffic streetcar may be good enough.

Atlanta just added a 4-km, 12-stop line that is street running.

ETA: By which I mean it makes sense more a city that is more compact than Toronto, and it was added as a way of making a main shopping thoroughfare more pedestrian-friendly.

 

[Rainforest]

Atlanta just added a 4-km, 12-stop line that is street running.

ETA: By which I mean it makes sense more a city that is more compact than Toronto, and it was added as a way of making a main shopping thoroughfare more pedestrian-friendly.

That's interesting.

Notably, that 4 km line is comparable to the shortest of TTC streetcar routes: Spadina, Bathurst / Exhibition, and Harborfront.

For a line that is only 4 km long, speed is not a major issue, and there is less risk of the vehicle bunching (provided that they are, at least, managed at both termini).

 

[CDL.TO]

That's interesting.

Notably, that 4 km line is comparable to the shortest of TTC streetcar routes: Spadina, Bathurst / Exhibition, and Harborfront.

For a line that is only 4 km long, speed is not a major issue, and there is less risk of the vehicle bunching (provided that they are, at least, managed at both termini).

It's a 4km long loop, making it only 2km end-to-end. Seriously.

Someone pointed out that if you do the math for the Atlanta case, if you get to the streetcar stop and the streetcar isn't there, you're always better off simply walking rather than waiting.