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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

Rainforest said:
The only way to find out is to make it an election issue. Let's see how pro-subway and pro-LRT candidates perform in the coming elections.
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Elections aren't referendums on transit plans. Especially not Council races, where constituents overwhelmingly vote based on name recognition, and not on any particular issue.

I'm 2018, nearly all (or nearly all) councillors will be reelected. The ones that don't will be displaced due to changes in ward boundaries. This is an established pattern in Toronto council races.

This is one of many reasons why Council seat should really should have term limits
 
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TheTigerMaster said:
Elections aren't referendums on transit plans. Especially not Council races, where constituents overwhelmingly vote based on name recognition, and not on any particular issue.

I'm 2018, nearly all (or nearly all) councillors will be reelected. The ones that don't will be displaced due to changes in ward boundaries. This is an established pattern in Toronto council races.

This is one of many reasons why Council seat should really should have term limits
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It has been Scarborough transit heavy in 2 straight elections. The Liberals have been "subway champions" thru-out Scarborough in every bi election since. Patrick Brown writing open letters directly about supporting the SSE for Raymond Cho. Neethan Shan supporting subway as an NDP affiliate just to win a new seat.

Scarborough councilors were asking for the SSE in Millers 1st term, then had to work with him to get other things done and many just accepted the LRT to get something finally built in Scarborough. Support was always here. When the people were given a voice from a Mayoral candidate it was to the point and if the first election wasn't enough to know the transfer plan was dead. The last election and the recent bi-elections should have been enough to stop talking transfers. But their is political butt-hurt and some politicians are mad they could dictate here and refuse to accept defeat against stupid democratic odds.

Since that's wasn't enough proof for the opposition to cut the transfer rhetoric maybe we needed to put it on the ballot last election. Sure you can say it wasn't a direct referendum, that will always be true for anything, but cmon.
 
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Scarborough Town Centre would have had a subway from the 80s if not for politicians tinkering around with a lighter rail technology. How little the LRT fans seemingly have learned from past mistakes.
 
Hopkins123 said:
Scarborough Town Centre would have had a subway from the 80s if not for politicians tinkering around with a lighter rail technology. How little the LRT fans seemingly have learned from past mistakes.
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The other way of looking at this is:
If TTC would have upgraded the ICTS system of the SRT (as Vancouver did), then it likely would have already been extended to Malvern and would be soon connected to Eglinton.
 
Rainforest said:
Your wording today is very different from yesterday.

Today you wrote that "They did vote for a proud bigot". That's technically correct, and is not insulting. I have no issue with that kind of wording.

However, yesterday you wrote that they are "in favour of bigotry". That was an insult directed towards the whole segment of populace. Such attacks are definitely off-limits in today's public debates (and it doesn't even matter whether you can build a logical connection supporting the insulting statement).

That's what prompted my objection; not the way you read the election results.

Speaking about the election results, their value as indicators is probably similar in all cases. They suggest where the public is leaning, but do not give an ironclad proof of that.
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No, I did not.

I wrote:

If election results are being interpreted as an iron-clad judgement on subways vs LRTs, should we also assume Scarborough residents are in favour of bigotry and deceit?

Are you agreeing the election results fairly paint Scarborough as one of the most biggoted areas of the city?

Rainforest said:
The second poll (by Forum Research) looks reasonable; the poll question isn't skewed. I can't comment on the first poll as the link does not mention the wording of the poll question.

Taking into account both the Forum Research poll (slightly in favor of LRT) and the election results (leaning towards the subway), one can conclude that both options (SSE and light rail) have certain level of support in the area. However, the majority of elected politicians are in favor of the subway. That means, either the poll is still flawed somehow (while taken in good faith; but maybe the poll sample did not really reflect the spread of opinions), or the said politicians are behind the curve and not aligned with the public preferences.

The only way to find out is to make it an election issue. Let's see how pro-subway and pro-LRT candidates perform in the coming elections.
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The polls are based entirely on the preference between the subway vs LRT.

The election was about myriad issues, one of which was transit.

Ford lied about the nature of LRTs (calling them streetcars that would clog the road), and the nature of funding ('it will be paid for by the private sector and inefficiencies), among other things. People voted for Ford based on lies, so it's essentially the exact opposite of an accurate gauge on what people want, based on the actual facts.

This is why using election results as proof of approval for subways is incredibly foolish.

That local politicians want a subway doesn't really mean a thing. It's political.

If you showed Torontonians a map of London's subway system, and asked if they want something similar in Toronto, I'm pretty sure 100% of the city would say yes. Ask them when you outline the cost, usage, maintenance, etc. and the answer would be much different.

It's amazing how far this 'debate' has devolved.
 
Hopkins123 said:
Scarborough Town Centre would have had a subway from the 80s if not for politicians tinkering around with a lighter rail technology. How little the LRT fans seemingly have learned from past mistakes.
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There was no plan to extend the subway to STC in the 80s - it made no sense. 30 years later it still makes no sense as there isn't the density to support it.

LRTs are successfully in use around the world, in areas with greater density than Scarborough too. It's a proven and very effective technology.
 
BurlOak said:
If TTC would have upgraded the ICTS system of the SRT (as Vancouver did), then it likely would have already been extended to Malvern and would be soon connected to Eglinton.
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The upgrade wouldn't work in Toronto because some of the SRT's curves are too tight for the newer ICTS trains.
 
Hopkins123 said:
Scarborough Town Centre would have had a subway from the 80s if not for politicians tinkering around with a lighter rail technology. How little the LRT fans seemingly have learned from past mistakes.
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No, it was going to be a real LRT line until politicians tinkered around with it, not a subway. A LRT line that was the first phase of a line that was planned to go all the way across the city through the Finch Hydro Corridor to the Airport and down to Kipling Station, but none of that happened thanks to political interference, the same political interference that just cost Scarborough 2-3 LRT lines in favour of one Subway Stop.

And if any fans are not learning anything, it's the Subway fans who have not learned that their subway fanaticism has cost us many other transit lines in favour of subways that don't or barely end up happening.
 
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Voltz said:
No, it was going to be a real LRT line until politicians tinkered around with it, not a subway. A LRT line that was the first phase of a line that was planned to go all the way across the city through the Finch Hydro Corridor to the Airport and down to Kipling Station, but none of that happened thanks to political interference, the same political interference that just cost Scarborough 2-3 LRT lines in favour of one Subway Stop.

And if any fans are not learning anything, it's the Subway fans who have not learned that their subway fanaticism has cost us many other transit lines in favour of subways that don't or barely end up happening.
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This SRT was intended to go a lot deeper into Scarborough, but because of political interference from the Province, TTC was forced to use more expensive ICTS technology, which could only bring the RT as far as McCowan.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
This SRT was intended to go a lot deeper into Scarborough, but because of political interference from the Province, TTC was forced to use more expensive ICTS technology, which could only bring the RT as far as McCowan.
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The irony is that the affordability of the ICTS technology is what has allowed Vancouver to achieve the largest rapid transit system in Canada - doing it in about 30 years compared to 60 and 50 years for Toronto and Montreal respectively.
 
syn said:
Are you agreeing the election results fairly paint Scarborough as one of the most biggoted areas of the city?
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Obviously, not. Remember that a significant portion of Scarborough population are visible minorities themselves, and a sizeable % of voters who supported RoFo were visible minorities.

Obviously, they couldn't have any personal interest in promoting biggoted agenda.

One can ask why they voted for RoFo then. I don't have a certain answer, but the most probable explanation is that they did not feel threatened by his biggoted personal views. And in a way, they were correct about it. Their human rights are protected by the federal laws and the system of courts. A mayor of the city have few mechanisms to implement any biggoted policies, regardless of his personal views.

On the other hand, his anti-tax, anti-spending agenda resonated with many voters, including recent immigrants who already acquired the citizenship. The 2010 elections were more about taxes and city spending than about transit.
 
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