Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[pman]

The waterfront LRT has made driving on the same road a complete nightmare. The LRT itself offers a pretty good experience, but you're trading too much to get that experience. At least in that respect, then yea, it is a "streetcar" except even worse.

“Nightmare”...really? As someone who actually drives on Queen’s Quay, I call bullshit.

 

[Sakraycore]

“Nightmare”...really? As someone who actually drives on Queen’s Quay, I call bullshit.

Driving along Queen's Quay through Harbourfront Centre is the worst driving experience possible in T.O., about as bad as driving through China Town. Granted, we usually only go there when there's an event or something happening but even just casually driving through on a friday evening with nothing going on is mayhem.

 

[sixrings]

I have actually made it part of my priorities to eventually run for a ward position in Scarborough (currently on the board of directors for my condominium complex) mostly due to this topic lol. But yea, my current position is to proceed with SSE, but add infil station for Lawrence in the future.

The waterfront LRT has made driving on the same road a complete nightmare. The LRT itself offers a pretty good experience, but you're trading too much to get that experience. At least in that respect, then yea, it is a "streetcar" except even worse.

You will do well as a Scarborough politician. You can use hyperbole's well to sell your transit fantasies to people whom have common sense.

 

[sixrings]

Driving along Queen's Quay through Harbourfront Centre is the worst driving experience possible in T.O., about as bad as driving through China Town. Granted, we usually only go there when there's an event or something happening but even just casually driving through on a friday evening with nothing going on is mayhem.

Are you expecting somehow for Queens Quay to have the same driving experience as a major road in Scarborough with two or three lanes in each direction. As someone who drives regularly on St. Clair the idea that with the ROW it is worse is laughable. Anyways perhaps one should be taking transit more often than driving when so close to the core.

 

[DB9]

Driving along Queen's Quay through Harbourfront Centre is the worst driving experience possible in T.O., about as bad as driving through China Town. Granted, we usually only go there when there's an event or something happening but even just casually driving through on a friday evening with nothing going on is mayhem.

This is hyperbole that's so detached from reality I don't know where to begin. Driving on any major arterial road in West Scarborough during morning or evening rush hour is worse than a "Friday night" on QQW, and I wouldn't even call the former the "worst driving experience in TO". On many mornings and evenings, the crawl on Sheppard from Warden to Don Mills could take up to an hour, or even longer.

 

[toaster29]

I think it's generally accepted that Queen's Quay and Lake Shore is difficult for even experienced drivers to navigate. Especially at Bathurst. Form a planning perspective and a Public Works perspective, I think there are issues here, not seen anywhere else in the City.

 

[sixrings]

The key word is "city." too many People in toronto act like traffic should be similar to a small town. Any major city has traffic and if we can prioritize car drivers vs transit riders we should be prioritizing the latter. This comes from someone who rarely uses transit and is stuck in traffic frequently

 

[OneCity]

You believe that Scarborough residents would rather have a one-stop subway to STC rather than a 7 stop LRT from Kennedy to Malvern on a dedicated right of way.
.

Not really close to anything I said.

Both plans have completely missed the mark. The plans residents would have supported without question were a 3 stop subway,a subway on the RT corridor, LRT connected to the ECLRT. And the stupidity of having a transfer LRT vs. 1 stop debate is just that. Both plan in your question are a complete shame

The subway is happening in some form, we are not going back. The bigger problem right now is the Opposition is still mad they didnt get their way, and views this watered down subway and Smarttrack combo vs. transfer LRT debate as hope for their beloved transfer plan. This is complete delusion and their non compromising politics only does the opposite and gives Doug Ford a bump to come forward and kill Smarttrack and add stops on the subway. And on the transit file this is what most residents voted for and what most residents want. Tory also supports a Lawrence so I have no idea why the opposition is still banging the drum on the transfer LRT and why the question you are asking is irrelevant in reality.

If the subway built with only one stop it wont be because the Mayor or the vast majority of Scarborough councilors didn't want them in. Absolute shame

 

[BurlOak]

The problem is poor communication. I believe most Scarberians don't truly understand the LRT option as a dedicated right of way.

The public understood the Scarborough LRT to be similar route as SRT with extension, and retention of the transfer. Pretty much exactly what it was.

They likely didn't understand that the transfer at Kennedy would be slightly improved - but basically they understood 95% of it.

 

[OneCity]

The problem is poor communication. I believe most Scarberians don't truly understand the LRT option as a dedicated right of way.

Nothing has been promoted more then transfer LRT. The Metroland "Scarborough" Mirror gets delivered to our door once a week for free and its basically nothing more then a repetitive Bloor bike lane and transfer LRT promotional advertisement. No transit plan has been beat any harder on the people than what Metroland and the Toronto Star have done here in the face of a rejected plan and almost no democratic support whatsoever.

Technology is not the problem, the transfers as well as transit equity are and always will be. There is solid support for the Eglinton East LRT. The old SLRT and SELRT don't and for good reasons

• The RT was a failure in many ways. technology, maintenance, stop locations, visibility, transfer
• we built subways to 905's empty lands of Vaughan Centre.
• we built subways extensively across North York and their Centre. Similar size and population
• the stubway connection in North York is terrible planning that adds an extra transfer upon Scarborough commuters in the LRT plan. We either convert it or complete it as it was intended.
• Toronto will expect Scarborough residents to fund their massive subway projects in the future and Scarborough residents continue to fund and maintain other areas.
• Our future growth node SCC would continue to be neutered and cut off from the City main transit artery. The transfer is also an issue here

Maybe you don't care about these things. But the people who live here do. Its the opposition which chooses not to understand. Not us "Scarberians"

 

[Rainforest]

What rude remarks?

I asked a question.

You claimed:

"Even though elections aren't a perfect way to evaluate the public opinion on transit options, it is still the best bet."

Why wouldn't it be safe to assume that an election is the best way to judge the integrity and tolerance for bigotry of a certain area of the city?

They did vote for a proud bigot, afterall.

You want the election to mean something when you feel it supports what you want, then you throw that line of reasoning out the window when the conclusion isn't something you find favourable.

Perhaps that should tell you something...

Your wording today is very different from yesterday.

Today you wrote that "They did vote for a proud bigot". That's technically correct, and is not insulting. I have no issue with that kind of wording.

However, yesterday you wrote that they are "in favour of bigotry". That was an insult directed towards the whole segment of populace. Such attacks are definitely off-limits in today's public debates (and it doesn't even matter whether you can build a logical connection supporting the insulting statement).

That's what prompted my objection; not the way you read the election results.

Speaking about the election results, their value as indicators is probably similar in all cases. They suggest where the public is leaning, but do not give an ironclad proof of that.

 

[Rainforest]

Here's the thing - people in Scarborough do support the LRT (or did at one point):

Even in Scarborough, the majority of decided respondents — 56 per cent — backed the LRT, compared to 44 per cent who wanted a subway.

The survey by Forum Research Inc. found that 42 per cent of Scarborough respondents said the cancelled seven-stop LRT would be the better option, compared to 37 per cent who backed the one-stop subway extension the city is building.

Obviously certain people will dismiss these results as they don't align with what they'd like to believe, but the idea that Scarborough doesn't support the LRT (or didn't) is false.

The second poll (by Forum Research) looks reasonable; the poll question isn't skewed. I can't comment on the first poll as the link does not mention the wording of the poll question.

Taking into account both the Forum Research poll (slightly in favor of LRT) and the election results (leaning towards the subway), one can conclude that both options (SSE and light rail) have certain level of support in the area. However, the majority of elected politicians are in favor of the subway. That means, either the poll is still flawed somehow (while taken in good faith; but maybe the poll sample did not really reflect the spread of opinions), or the said politicians are behind the curve and not aligned with the public preferences.

The only way to find out is to make it an election issue. Let's see how pro-subway and pro-LRT candidates perform in the coming elections.

 

[Rainforest]

You believe that Scarborough residents would rather have a one-stop subway to STC rather than a 7 stop LRT from Kennedy to Malvern on a dedicated right of way.

That is the problem. ROFO sold the Subway plan and got elected on emotion. "Scarborough deserves to be treated better. Scarborough deserves Subways!" If ROFO had focused on improving the LRT transfer placement he wouldn't have earned as many votes. Never mind that thousands more Scarberians would experience significantly improved transit, with multiple stops in Scarborough City Center vs the one-stop Subway. Instead ROFO sold Scarberians the idea of Subways vs streetcars. It was a lie but RoFo, like Donald Trump, was getting way too much air time. ROFO's misinformation won the day.

The problem is poor communication. I believe most Scarberians don't truly understand the LRT option as a dedicated right of way.

You are correct that RoFo messed up the field. He lied when he said LRT = streetcar, and probably got some additional votes that he wouldn't get otherwise.

That unfortunate fact doesn't necessarily mean that the majority of Scarborough residents cannot prefer the subway option, even when fully and correctly informed about LRT. The number of transit riders who live within walking distance from the 6 lost LRT stations (Lawrence East, Ellesmere, Midland, McCowan, Centennial, Sheppard/Markham) is not that big; perhaps just 5% to 10% of of all those who travel daily via the Kennedy station. I don't count STC here, because it gets a station according to both plans.

Many more riders will start their commute on a bus, anyway. They may be thinking, "Either I take a shorter bus ride and transfer to LRT, then transfer again at Kennedy. Or, I take a bus ride that's 5 or 10 min longer, but transfer directly to the subway." Which option is more appealing? I would be on the fence if I lived in Scarborough and participated in an opinion poll or a plebiscite on the transit options. My answer would probably depend on where exactly I live and how does my commute look like.

 

[sixrings]

These Scarborough folks are like the rebels fighting the evil empire. They will not take anything less than a subway. May the force be with them

 

[Rainforest]

These Scarborough folks are like the rebels fighting the evil empire. They will not take anything less than a subway. May the force be with them

Your interpretation isn't based on any actual statements made by your opponents.