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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

denfromoakvillemilton said:
Just bite the bullet on Sheppard and Scarborough and let's move on. Extend Bloor to Square if you have to. Just get this done, there is more important issues to be fighting about like RER
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Rough estimate of whats needed for the DRL short,long and West, Sheppard west, Yonge subway and other LRT's. 50 billion maybe? With inflation and new projects over the next 100 years $100 billion possibly? In capital alone (just for Toronto not GTA). Damn too bad we could force poorly placed transfers in Scarborough. Was such a good cause.
 
Being so frustrated about all the arguing that you conclude screw it here's a blank check is no different than being a parent and shutting your crying kid up by buying them a toy they likely will never use for more than a day. However in this case the toy is so big and the parents so poor that the kid can wave goodbye to going to college after this one purchase.
 
Rainforest said:
That's another matter; Agincourt could be turned into a decent hub. Local space may be a problem, but I guess some buildings surrounding it could be taken and demolished in order to make room for transit connections and for highrises.
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Local space is definitely not an issue. Pretty much everything along the Sheppard corridor from Markham Road to Vic Park can be demolished and rebuilt to higher density. Most of it are ugly generic strip malls with a sea of parking that's barely half full at the best of times. Also, all the surrounding areas are pretty much SFHs, with pockets of apartments here and there.

The only issue is political will. The SFH lots in the area are huge (especially for such a prime location), and we are looking into demolishing a SFH to build a pair of semis (it'll fit quite generously .. bigger lot size than even the SFH new builds up in the 905) to downsize. But the zoning is so ridiculously stringent, that it looks like it'll be next to impossible to get approval for it.
 
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sixrings said:
However in this case the toy is so big and the parents so poor that the kid can wave goodbye to going to college after this one purchase.
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In this case the parents are quite wealthy - the richest city in Canada - and the toy is modest in size and cost compared to the shopping list (of transit projects) the parents already sketched.

More like the parents have agreed to buy a birthday present, then changed their mind and are trying to get out of their previous commitment by throwing a tantrum on their own.
 
DB9 said:
Local space is definitely not an issue. Pretty much everything along the Sheppard corridor from Markham Road to Vic Park can be demolished and rebuilt to higher density. Most of it are ugly generic strip malls with a sea of parking that's barely half full at the best of times. Also, all the surrounding areas are pretty much SFHs, with pockets of apartments here and there.

The only issue is political will. The SFH lots in the area are huge (especially for such a prime location), and we are looking into demolishing a SFH to build a pair of semis (it'll fit quite generously .. bigger lot size than even the SFH new builds up in the 905) to downsize. But the zoning is so ridiculously stringent, that it looks like it'll be next to impossible to get approval for it.
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The conflict between the SFH area preservation and the upzoning permitting higher density is quite generic and is seen in many places around the city. Higher density will be winning step by step but that will occur slowly.

It may be a good idea to rebuild everything along the Sheppard corridor eventually, but in the context of the transit scheme posted by sixrings, that's not mandatory. Rebuilding just the area around Agincourt, in the 500 m or 700 m radius, would be sufficient to make room for transit amenities, and throw in some highrises / midrises for full measure.
 
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Rainforest said:
In this case the parents are quite wealthy - the richest city in Canada - and the toy is modest in size and cost compared to the shopping list (of transit projects) the parents already sketched.

More like the parents have agreed to buy a birthday present, then changed their mind and are trying to get out of their previous commitment by throwing a tantrum on their own.
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Wow that’s a totally inaccurate reflection of reality.

First, the long term capital budget for the TTC is not the definition of “wealthy”. It is chronically underfunded.

https://torontoist.com/2017/09/ttc-budget-woes-deepen/
“Toronto ignores the growing backlog of transit repairs and renewal at its peril—not to mention the $2.8-billion hole in the plan”

Secondly, the cost of the SSE is not “modest” compared to other proposed transit lines, save for the RL which everyone acknowledges is the most critically needed and transformative transit line for this city.

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...9194407/?ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&
Go through each of those lines and tell me how $3B+ is “modest” compared to most of those proposals which are in the $hundreds of millions. Then there is the value-for-money proposition: how a line with one stop provides high value, is on its face laughable.
 
pstogios said:
Wow that’s a totally inaccurate reflection of reality.

First, the long term capital budget for the TTC is not the definition of “wealthy”. It is chronically underfunded.

https://torontoist.com/2017/09/ttc-budget-woes-deepen/
“Toronto ignores the growing backlog of transit repairs and renewal at its peril—not to mention the $2.8-billion hole in the plan”

Secondly, the cost of the SSE is not “modest” compared to other proposed transit lines, save for the RL which everyone acknowledges is the most critically needed and transformative transit line for this city.

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...9194407/?ref=https://www.theglobeandmail.com&
Go through each of those lines and tell me how $3B+ is “modest” compared to most of those proposals which are in the $hundreds of millions. Then there is the value-for-money proposition: how a line with one stop provides high value, is on its face laughable.
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We can't talk about the SSE not being a modest expenditure in the same breath as extolling the virtues of something like the DRL phase 1, which will cost over twice as much as SSE to build for roughly the same amount of trackbed. General hyperinflation of tunnel construction is the bigger issue/culprit here, not whether SSE - with a projected 36 million riders per year - is worth the endeavour.
 
Hopkins123 said:
We can't talk about the SSE not being a modest expenditure in the same breath as extolling the virtues of something like the DRL phase 1, which will cost over twice as much as SSE to build for roughly the same amount of trackbed. General hyperinflation of tunnel construction is the bigger issue/culprit here, not whether SSE - with a projected 36 million riders per year - is worth the endeavour.
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And we can't compare the DRL with the SSE without discussing need, density and return on investment.

The DRL is not going to be just a one stop extension, and it's desperately needed to relieve pressure on an already over-capacity Yonge Line.

The SSE is a one stop vanity project because people in Scarborough apparently shouldn't have to make transfers like TTC riders across the rest of the city.

I think it's quite obvious why one is being considered a worthwhile and necessary investment, and the other a waste of taxpayer dollars.
 
sixrings said:
Being so frustrated about all the arguing that you conclude screw it here's a blank check is no different than being a parent and shutting your crying kid up by buying them a toy they likely will never use for more than a day. However in this case the toy is so big and the parents so poor that the kid can wave goodbye to going to college after this one purchase.
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Respectfully, whatever your views on the SSE, this is just not true. Undoubtedly the SSE is looking less attractive at its inflated price. But that inflated price is nowhere close to imperiling our transit future. People need to stop with the hyperbole. And the constant insistence that this is some zero sum game. That only furthers the viewpoint of those who feel alienated.

If for example, the GTA had a 1% sales tax funding transit regionally, bringing in a few billion annually, would anybody really be as worried about the SSE? Sure, the price tag would be disappointing. But I doubt people would make it out to be some kind of existential threat. The real issue here is that we don't have stable long term funding for transit projects. So that means that every community is fighting for table scraps from Queen's Park. This is exactly why I hope that Metrolinx some day takes over all regional transit in the GTA and gets to levy every GTA resident with property taxes and sales taxes.
 
syn said:
And we can't compare the DRL with the SSE without discussing need, density and return on investment.

The DRL is not going to be just a one stop extension, and it's desperately needed to relieve pressure on an already over-capacity Yonge Line.

The SSE is a one stop vanity project because people in Scarborough apparently shouldn't have to make transfers like TTC riders across the rest of the city.

I think it's quite obvious why one is being considered a worthwhile and necessary investment, and the other a waste of taxpayer dollars.
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Even if the Relief Line was a zero stop subway extension (just tunnel and new platforms), it is still more useful than the SSE with 3 stops.
 
Leo_Chan said:
Even if the Relief Line was a zero stop subway extension (just tunnel and new platforms), it is still more useful than the SSE with 3 stops.
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I don't think this point can be stressed enough.

I'd go as far and say that even a zero-stop Relief Line subway would be more needed than SSE, Yonge North, Spadina Extension and SmartTrack (GO-RER on Kitchener-Stoufville) combined. It needs to absolutely be our region's transit priority right now.
 
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