Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

What? In what world are busses not considered transit? More than half of all TTC trips are made by bus. The huge majority of TTC subways trips originate from bus transfers. You can't just pretend buses don't exist.

Most of the riders traveling to Scarborough Centre Station are getting there by bus.

Exactly. That's why the one-stop extension, though not ideal, will still shorten more commutes than it will lengthen.

 

[Rainforest]

Would an extension to Sheppard be more or less likely than a future stop at Lawrence (assuming it doesn't get build initially).

I would think that the Lawrence stop either needs to be restored during the design phase, or it will never be added afterwards.

An extension to Sheppard should be still doable even after the STC station opens. There would be some extra costs involved, compared to doing both stations together. But it won't be impossible to add the Sheppard station later.

 

[Rainforest]

The fate of the Lawrence stop will likely be decided at the 30% design vote. If the vote comes after the election it will be a key topic highlighted to Scarborough voters. Many subway supporters are currently quite upset we are building this line with only one stop. And it has nothing to do with anyone wanting LRT. I expect it to be a close vote and for it to pass it will mean some councilors will have to soften their stance to make the best put of a bad situation. Even if they don't build it initially it still needs to be roughed in and that wont happen without the support to add it into the design. Currently it is not. Coin flip odds it gets added in.

I hope that both the Lawrence East and the Sheppard / McCowan stations are added back. But, I can see John Tory, or whoever becomes the next mayor, being reluctant to put the issue to another vote.

Opponents of SSE make a sizeable minority on the Council. If the YES vote gets split between those who want more stops, and those who don't want to spend more money, then the opponents get a chance to either derail or delay the whole project. If that happened, then the mayor would get stuck with no clear path at all (the SLRT plan is likely not workable any more without modifications, due to the space constraints).

I'd like to see them trying to get more federal money for this project. Currently, the federal contirbution stands at $660 million out of the $3,400 million total cost. If the federal contribution went up to 40%, that would be about $1,250 million extra; should be enough to restore both lost stops.

Not sure though if the project started before the latest federal announcement is still eligible.

Sheppard line is getting built. The only question is when? My guess is an extension it unlikely to happen during with this construction of the SSE but will be discussed at election time to help push the Lawrence stop thru possibly. It may be more likely to occur around the same time or just following the DRL long with a package with Sheppard West. This line was pretty much a done deal once the LRT was "postponed" and the BDL extension to SSE only give the Sheppard line more support as a loop. The support for this loop is pretty large in Scarborough. The Province is fully aware of this and not sure there isn't enough savings to warrant another battle over a transfer technology, which unlike the SSE the battle been had and has time to plan accordingly.

Sheppard subway extension will not happen for a while. Furthermore, when the time comes to deal with the Sheppard corridor, I am not sure that a full-fledged subway is the best answer. I get it that the riders don't want a transfer at Don Mills, and therefore a low-floor LRT may not be the best answer either.

We should at least consider a high-floor LRT option, and a mini / ICTS type subway option with a smaller footprint and cheaper construction (and the transfer at Don Mills eliminated).

 

[Rainforest]

The bigger question for Scarborough is how does Malvern get integrated?

• LRT from City Centre to Markham/Milner and or MTC?
• Eglinton East LRT extension into MTC?
• Subway from SCC to Markham/Milner
• A combo for Eglinton East and City Centre extension

My guess is we see Eglinton East LRT gets extended within 10 years as a political gesture to get something built out there and then a few decades of napkin plans from SCC which becomes the next game Poltical kick-ball.

IMO, the best option is to send an LRT from Malvern to SCC (or the Sheppard / McCowan subway terminus if the subway gets there). If possible, the same LRT would continue to Agincourt station and connect to SmartTrack.

A subway from SCC to Malvern would be difficult to build and very expensive, for a much smaller # of riders compared to south of SCC.

Eglinton East LRT extension from UTSC to Malvern would be relatively easy to build, but it won't be very useful. For the riders going from Malvern to Kennedy, it would be much faster (~ 10 min diff) to take a bus to SCC and then the express subway, rather than stay on the LRT all the way from Malvern to Kennedy doing a detour via UTSC.

Eglinton East LRT will be very useful for other kind of trips, but it shouln't be extended too far.

Malvern would be better served by a separate LRT that connects to the SSE northern terminus and takes the shortest path.

 

[OneCity]

I hope that both the Lawrence East and the Sheppard / McCowan stations are added back. But, I can see John Tory, or whoever becomes the next mayor, being reluctant to put the issue to another vote.

I agree and I would also hope these stops back in. It will certainly be discussed at election time alongside the LRT crowd banging the same loud broken drum to distract, cause trouble and in the end I expect one of the two stops to be added in.

Tory doesn't have a choice as far as it going to another vote. There will be atleast a couple more votes. But after 30% itll be tough to design for anything to added in without facing significant delays. Whether the 30% vote comes before the election or after as I suspect they may have purposely dragged their heels a bit for the latter it will be a very important vote as ill be a likely deadline for stops to be added.

 

[jcam]

I agree and I would also hope these stops back in. It will certainly be discussed at election time alongside the LRT crowd banging the same loud broken drum to distract, cause trouble and in the end I expect one of the two stops to be added in.

Tory doesn't have a choice as far as it going to another vote. There will be atleast a couple more votes. But after 30% itll be tough to design for anything to be added in without facing significant delays. Whether the 30% vote comes before the election or after as I suspect they may have purposely dragged their heels a bit for the latter it will be a very important vote as ill be a likely deadline for stops to be added.

Given that I believe even the cost increases coming with 30% design will make this become a politically untenable project (i.e. $~4B per stop, vs. things like YSE, DRL, and any of the LRTs), I can almost guarantee that people won't be jumping to ADD scope.

 

[OneCity]

Given that I believe even the cost increases coming with 30% design will make this become a politically untenable project (i.e. $~4B per stop, vs. things like YSE, DRL, and any of the LRTs), I can almost guarantee that people won't be jumping to ADD scope.

Agreed. Certainly a good chance it stays as the current plan given the council status. It is what it is. But I personally think that the cost of adding stops out weighs the legacy of digging 6km and leaving one stop.

Its far from straight forward as far as the Lawrence stop, the last vote was a coin flip, Tory even voted for it, the Province also has to own some responsibility, the cost is massive no matter what and 300 million for a stop on a 4B price tag may not scare as many middling councilors as some think. I can just as easily see it being added if the election makes it an issue. Those who strongly oppose on council never cared about the cost they were and are always opposed to any change from Millers plan. Those in the middle can be swayed by the cost or by public opinion which is why its far from over as far as stops go and the election will bring that to light.

 

[lead82]

Add to this the costs of ATC and costs of buying new trains.

 

[OneCity]

Add to this the costs of ATC and costs of buying new trains.

Certainly a related upgrade but not an additional cost to the project itself.

 

[Rainforest]

Add to this the costs of ATC and costs of buying new trains.

Which would happen even without SSE, just a few years later.

 

[OneCity]

"Scarborough" Transit Action says 83% of their "survey" indicates Lawrence stop commuters live under a rock, don't read or listen to the news about the City they live in. Should make a great agenda headline tomorrow. Just more wasted time and interference trying to shed light on the tiny minority of residents who care about the RT to help push the rejected LRT line to SCC. This group refuses to respect the democratic vote and accept the LRT plan doesn't work in its current form. They could be advocating to add a subway stop to actually help Lawrence residents with something meaningful and what the people actually want so we can move forward instead of shedding light on some randoms who seem to be without a light to begin with.

 

[Rainforest]

"Scarborough" Transit Action says 83% of their "survey" indicates Lawrence stop commuters live under a rock, don't read or listen to the news about the City they live in. Should make a great agenda headline tomorrow. Just more wasted time and interference trying to shed light on the tiny minority of residents who care about the RT to help push the rejected LRT line to SCC. These people refuse to respect the democratic vote of and accept the plan doesn't work in its current form. Worse the are shedding light on on the randoms who seem to be without a light to begin with. They could be advocating to add a subway stop to actually help Lawrence residents with something meaningful and what the people actually want so we can move forward.



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The real issue hear is the disappearance of the SSE's Lawrence East station from the plans. With a station at Lawrence & McCowan, riders of the Lawrence East bus wouldn't be inconvenienced at all.

Just a few residents living within a walking distance from the old Lawrence East station would be inconvenienced, and even those could either take a short counter-flow bus ride to the new Lawrence East station or use SmartTrack.

Absence of the SSE's Lawrence East station will indeed cause a problem for some residents. Not a reason to cancel SSE, but certain actions have to be taken. Reinstating the station would be best. If not possible, then perhaps an express shuttle bus to Kennedy Stn operating for at least 5 years after the subway opens can help. North on Kennedy, east on Lawrence, south on Midland, west on Eglinton.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Group of TTC riders protest one-stop subway extension.

See link to CTV News.

Despite that SmartTrack is supposed provide stations at Lawrence East and Ellesmere.

 

[OneCity]

Group of TTC riders protest one-stop subway extension.

See link to CTV News.

Despite that SmartTrack is supposed provide stations at Lawrence East and Ellesmere.

Lawrence should be added along the subway and Ellesmere can go as a Smartrack if they so choose. "Local" transit stays intact on Lawrence and the questionable benefits of an Ellesmere stop in the rail corridor location could be solved by adding a Smartrack stop.

TTCRiders is going to make matters worse for everyone at this stage for pushing the long rejected transfer plan. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/scarborough-subway-1.4258514?cmp=rss. They might just be getting started with a campaign to make noise and promote the old plan toward the election The one stop subway may be bad, but we either improve it, relocate it, or provide an alternate LRT plan to the original. Anything else is a complete waste of time given the stage were now at and even making any revisions aside from stops would be back peddling again and have further counter productive consequences. The City needs to move on.

 

[sixrings]

So now we have some scarborough people preferring the old lrt plan. I guess one city doesn't speak for all of scarborough after all.