Armour
Senior Member
The number of bicyclists vs. drivers doesn't justify equal lane allotment. While it is true that the bicycle dominated at one point, times have changed and a more efficient means of transportation emmerged in its place.
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General cycling issues (Is Toronto bike friendly?)
- Thread starter rp07
- Start date
W. K. Lis
Superstar
How many people per bicycle versus how many people per automobile? I say about the same number, 1.3. Just because the automobile is larger than a bicycle, doesn't mean it carries more people.
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Armour
Senior Member
I never said that. I said that there are more drivers than cyclists (even with two or more people per bike, which is rare). More people drive personal vehicles to get around, which is why they are given priority over cyclists. Whether one sees this as a good or bad thing is a different discussion.
Many cars, at a given time, may have the same amount of passengers as a bike, but cars still out number those bikes by a long shot.
Many cars, at a given time, may have the same amount of passengers as a bike, but cars still out number those bikes by a long shot.
MisterF
Senior Member
Not everywhere. And the more bike infrastructure is built, the more that will continue to change, especially in the more densely populated parts of the city.
Calling cars more efficient than bicycles is a bit of a stretch. Bikes outnumber cars on College Street in peak hours, yet 81% of the street is dedicated to cars. Doesn't seem very efficient to me.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Design a city for cars, you get cars.
Design a city for bikes, you get bikes.
Design a city for bikes, you get bikes.
Armour
Senior Member
Bikes are only practical for short distances. No one is riding a bike from Malvern into the core. There may be certain pockets of the city where bikes are more common than cars (I haven't witnessed this, myself). Also, most people are lazy and prefer the ease of driving a personal vehicle. Bikes will never compete with cars, at large, in this city. I'm not against having better cycling infrastructure, however. I enjoy my bike, but I tend to stick to the ravines when riding.
salsa
Senior Member
I don't live in Malvern, but I live in North York and bike to downtown a lot. It takes almost an hour, but it's a nice ride that takes me through a lot of leafy residential streets in places like Rosedale, Forest Hill, etc. When I'm feeling lazy I just take the bus and subway combo, which is about 15 min faster than by bike unless the bus service is messed up.
Armour
Senior Member
You're an exception though. The majority of people don't have the patience or will to do that. And you could basically never commute to work on a bike over such a great distance, unless you want to leave home extra early. A car will basically always win out for the preferable mode of transport over long distances. It is faster (save traffic jams) and requires no physical exertion; plus it shelters one from the elements.
smably
Senior Member
How about some actual data?
The median Toronto commuting distance in 2006 (I can't find the 2011 numbers) was 9.4 km. Let's say that's about 40 minutes for the average cyclist. So fully half of commuters in Toronto could bike to work in 40 minutes or less, which is actually less than the average commute time by some measures. Around 29% of people commuted less than 5 km -- that's less than 20 minutes by bike. With proper infrastructure, bikes could be very competitive with cars at that distance.
Sure, not all trips are feasible by bike, but it's not like the average commuter is travelling from Rexdale to Malvern.
Armour
Senior Member
Culturally, suburbanites hardly bike and aren't the types to bike to work. Throw in the fact that many of them drop their kids off at school before heading to work, making cycling even less attractive and practical.
Many commuters travel further than the distance between Malvern and Rexdale. People drive into the city each day from as far as Ajax and Newmarket.
Many commuters travel further than the distance between Malvern and Rexdale. People drive into the city each day from as far as Ajax and Newmarket.
smably
Senior Member
Sure, change wouldn't happen overnight even with new infrastructure. Cultural change takes time, but it happens. Even places like Amsterdam didn't become bike utopias over night. That doesn't mean that it's not worth starting now.
Did you even read the numbers I posted above? Of course some people have long commutes, but more than half of commuters travel less than 10k to work.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Yes, bike will never be the best choice for *everybody*.
But, can't we accept that cars also aren't the best choice for *everybody* and therefore we should create infrastructure that enables people who are willing to choose a mode of transportation that is less space-consuming, unpolluting, quieter, healthier, more financially responsible, and helps create better social cohesion?
But, can't we accept that cars also aren't the best choice for *everybody* and therefore we should create infrastructure that enables people who are willing to choose a mode of transportation that is less space-consuming, unpolluting, quieter, healthier, more financially responsible, and helps create better social cohesion?
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Amsterdam. 1972.
Car City. No bike paths.
Car City. No bike paths.
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mdrejhon
Senior Member
On a metro basis, this is true.
But bikes regularly outnumber cars in some areas of Toronto at bike peak.
Examples:
More bikes than cars at Bathurst-Adelaide
and
More bikes than cars on College
More bikes than cars on College
Ditto for New York city; some streets in NYC amazingly has bike rush hour traffic that outnumbers cars today on those streets. NEW YORK CITY!
Stunning growth of bikes in New York City
Stunning growth of bikes in New York City
That's New York City.
Read that again.
New York City.
You are right however, on a Toronto metro-wide average.
But surgically, some locations of Toronto now has massive bike peak.
We need major improvements in downtown bike infrastructure, stat, because of the continuing unstoppable condo explosion, full stop. More protected cycle tracks. Improved and bigger bike sharing system (e.g. SoBi, which allows off-station docking at ordinary bike racks, no full-dock worries). Better markings through intersections. Improved safety. There is no argument.
A car lane can only handle 2,000 cars per hour, tailgating each other at less than 2 seconds (There's only 3600 seconds in 1 hour). Due to stoplights and traffic, it is often less than 1000. As you can see, in the diagram above, a narrow bike lane on College is pushing more bikes through than cars! Efficiency of downtown street people-pushing density has now become: Public Transit, then Bikes, then Cars.
Population density downtown is getting incredible. Condos will continue.
It is really Homer Simpson No-Brainer for downtown.
Even as a car-owner, I say -- bring on the downtown bike infrastructure!
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Napoleon
Active Member
I for one cannot imagine living in a city designed to accommodate individual drivers from Ajax and Newmarket. As the downtown population of Toronto grows, there is no more room to put any other drivers on the the roads. The roads also can't get bigger. The only choice we have is to improve other modes for moving people, primarily cycling, transit, and walking. I agree that only one of those three works for commuters from the far suburbs, but with improvements in bike/ped infrastructure and local transit, we can make it much easier for them to get from Union Station to their final destination in Toronto.