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Communities in Boom report: Toronto dead last

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Glen

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Apparently Saskatoon is the business capital of Canada.

It's really no surprise that the 905 has been attracting more business - this is nothing new. This situation won't last forever though.
 
Is it just my Mac, or are the first 3 pages to the report redacted?

At any rate, this study doesn't count as evidence for anything except for the ease with which you can dress up arbitrary rankings as statistical facts and get the media to print it.

I especially like the line in the Fin. Post article where the guy behind the survey says, in essence, 'we mutliply the significance of tax differences because taxes piss us off'

It's supposedly a poll of attitudes and optimism among small business people. Sample sizes? Margin of error. None given except that New Glasgow's sample size was too small to include. Maybe no one responded.

Crap.
 
syn said:
It's really no surprise that the 905 has been attracting more business - this is nothing new. This situation won't last forever though.
Click to expand...

Why? I can't predict the future, so I can't really say, but there is this unquestioned assumption that the suburbs will soon fall off some cliff. Suburban eschatology.
 
The argument is that the suburbs have been able to maintain low tax rates only on the backs of development fees. As available land is built up, how are the suburbs going to replace that revenue?
 
Because if you look at the history of suburbs across North America this is generally the case. North York, Scarborough and Etobicoke, from the 1950's to 1970's, were what the 905 is today. Business fled downtown for greenfields here where land and taxes were cheaper and infrastructure was brand new. Today land and taxes here are more expensive and the cost of maintaining old infrastructure is high. Business is now leaving these areas for greenfields in 905. How long before this happens to inner 905 and businesses start to flee to new areas further out? Mississauga is already increasing taxes to deal with infrastructure that's getting old.
 
Your city is doomed.... DOOMED!!!!!

(and not like the last thirty years we've said it was doomed and turned out just fine, this time it really is for real domed... err doomed)
 
Whoaccio said:
Why? I can't predict the future, so I can't really say, but there is this unquestioned assumption that the suburbs will soon fall off some cliff. Suburban eschatology.
Click to expand...

GraphicMatt and Uncle Teddy hit the nail on the head. I'm not saying Mississauga is doomed, but the conditions which have allowed it to offer lower corporate taxes and attract businesses will not be there forever. In fact, they're probably going sooner rather than later.
 
I remain skeptical. More to the point, the "suburbs will soon end" refrain has let urban leaders escape any meaningful oversight. The idea that there will be some inevitable collapse of the 905 just provides an excuse to ignore Toronto's inhospitable tax climate (most of wich doesn't fund stuff like "infrastructure" per se), poor growth figures and penchant for over regulating. It's totally faith based and kills protectiveness. We're like the poorer stupider cousin who found god and thinks Heaven will be better than life.

As long as the 905 sucks up nearly all of the new immigrants and jobs, there will be development and reinvestment in infrastructure.
 
junctionist said:
There's plenty of land available for new suburbs, so couldn't the trend continue?
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Sure, but it gets more complicated. Trends show that more and more people today want to live in or near cities - culture, walkability, social groupings, etc. are big draws - you can only go so far away from those centres before commute times get too long and there's resistance.

Oil prices will invariably affect how far people are willing to commute, too.

The suburbs could mitigate this through city planning, offering some of the qualities that draw people to cities - the culture, the walkability, the social groupings - but historically they have not done so, preferring to direct nearly all their energy toward securing new development regardless of what form it takes.
 
Whoaccio said:
I remain skeptical. More to the point, the "suburbs will soon end" refrain has let urban leaders escape any meaningful oversight. The idea that there will be some inevitable collapse of the 905 just provides an excuse to ignore Toronto's inhospitable tax climate (most of wich doesn't fund stuff like "infrastructure" per se), poor growth figures and penchant for over regulating. It's totally faith based and kills protectiveness. We're like the poorer stupider cousin who found god and thinks Heaven will be better than life.

As long as the 905 sucks up nearly all of the new immigrants and jobs, there will be development and reinvestment in infrastructure.
Click to expand...

I don't think the 905 (or suburbs in general) will end, really, just that they'll face the exact same issues that Toronto faced when it grew into a big city, and as such there will be a rebalancing effect, as the 905's taxes necessarily rise as development cash cows die off.

Long term, I see the next ring of suburbs around Toronto becoming almost indistinguishable from Toronto itself, as North York, Etobcioke & Scarborough have, in terms of taxes, infrastructure and (hopefully) an integrated transit system.

Less "Us vs Them" and more "Us".

Edit: Also, it's a bit disingenuous to say that anyone has been ignoring the issues with Toronto's business taxes. They're being decreased, and that should continue.
 
GraphicMatt said:
Edit: Also, it's a bit disingenuous to say that anyone has been ignoring the issues with Toronto's business taxes. They're being decreased, and that should continue.
Click to expand...

It is not disingenuous at all. The program is insufficient. There has never been any feasibility studies to determine the impact of the end point rates (2.5x that of residential). Yet there is evidence* that even at that ratio, one of two things will happen. Either businesses will continue to find the burden to much and continue to flee, or the high taxes will continue to erode the non commercial tax base, or both. In any event the the shrinking of the non residential tax base implies a greater shift in taxes towards residents than planned for.

* ask Gary Duke, or Les Liversidge in example given in the Post article. Look at all the vibrant areas in Toronto, like Kensington, west Queen West, Ossington, The Beach, etc. All contain old buildings that have been protected by capping. No one has done any feasibility studies to see what would happen once they reach their full tax rates. Most are paying less than 50% of the taxes they would at the end point of Toronto's program to reduce the ratios.
 
GraphicMatt said:
Oil prices will invariably affect how far people are willing to commute, too.
Click to expand...

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