"Classy" Chinese food - does it exist?

[ElDee]

Just a 'fun' topic that I've sometimes discussed with friends when we go out to eat: Is it possible to serve/present/eat Chinese food in a classy/upscale way? Or is it inherent to this particular food culture to be, for lack of better words, "messy" and "unrefined?"

Technically, the category of "Chinese food" itself is huge in breadth so let's just assume that we're talking about the spectrum of what we are exposed to in Toronto.

I would say 'no' when it comes to Chinese food. I have never been able to imagine a scene where two well dressed people are on a candle-lit date at a Chinese restaurant, quietly whispering affections to each other ... then a big ol' steaming plate of beef fried ho-fun comes out with a side of stir fried garlic bean sprouts. Things go all over the place as the couple tries to fork and spoon the food onto their individual plates.

To try and further describe what I mean - some Japanese food categories such as sushi, izakaya, etc seemingly have achieved the formula. From aloof sushi chefs with their gleaming knives delicately slicing fish behind the counter to candle lit settings like Miku, Kobo Nobu et al - Even the lowly ramen seems to be presentable in an 'upscale' fashion due to places like Momofuku. There seems to be an air of refinement in it even though its still ramen that splashes everywhere as you slurp it loud and proud.

From my own experiences, places like Dynasty in Yorkville and Pearl down at the Harbourfront come closest to what I'm trying to describe, but at the end of the day its still Chinese food in the traditional sense of having a "family style" eating feel to it.

If anyone more experienced with Toronto food culture could enlighten me - Do we have a wide selection of Chinese food variety in Toronto? Or are we limited to mostly dim sum and Cantonese joints with a few specifically regional options such as Swatow or Asian Legend.

Disclaimer: I live downtown and hardly venture into Markham/Scarborough and so my exposure to our available Chinese food is highly limited. I also have yet to go to places like Sasur Lee's restaurants, for example, which I assumed to be upscale fusion as opposed to classic Chinese food, and I should reserve judgement until I get a chance to go check it out.

Anyhow ... this is making me hungry.

 

[grey]

You're severely missing out if you haven't been to Susur Lee's restaurants. I would consider them more contemporary than fusion. Fusion implies a blend of cross-cultural cuisines, which I just don't see at Lee Restaurant, although maybe if you consider inter-regional Chinese cuisine to be fusion...

I think Luckee is the closest option to the refined traditional style you're looking for.

Also check out DaiLo (formerly GwaiLo). I haven't been to DaiLo, but here's Toronto Life's take on GwaiLo: http://torontolife.com/food/gwailo-preview-dinner/

 

[ksun]

to the OP, the kind of Chinese food available to Torontonians in downtown is worse than mediocre by Chinese standards. So whatever impression that leaves on you doesn't come anywhere close to what Chinese food is. As a Chinese, I can't recommend one single Chinese restaurant downtown because they are mediocre at best and the rest are simply disgusting. Not to mention the fact that they are predominantly Cantonese style, which is probably 5% of Chinese cuisine (if you go to Shanghai or Beijing, Cantonese food probably does represent 5% of the local food scene while here it is like 90%). So don't be misled into believe that's real.

however, I largely concur with you that Chinese food is poorly marketed and never enjoy the prestige Italian and Japanese do. In reality, high end Chinese food is just as sophisticated as Japanese, French and Italian, but several reasons destroyed its overall reputation. I will elaborate a bit.

1) there are way more Chinese immigrants than Japanese/French and probably Italians too, and one of their main business is restaurants. Sadly, they compete in an unhealthy way - on price rather on quality. The result is you mostly see cheap Chinese restaurants with their gross hygiene conditions, poor décor and bad service. The primary reason is that they target mostly Chinese clientele, which at least in the past used to be low income. So class is of least concern to them. Such trend persisted for decades and gives Chinese food a bad rep - almost synonymous to cheap in North America, until recently the more wealth Chinese immigrated here.

2) the Chinese restaurateurs have poor marketing skills. Japanese food is an excellent example of successful marketing. If you do know food, you will quickly find that Japanese food is in fact not that complicated and doesn't have many varieties. However, the whole "package" is beautiful and elegant. The presentation is upscale. I am not denying the quality of Japanese cuisine - loved my experience in Tokyo, but compared with Chinese food, it lacks variety and options of flavour. but Chinese restaurant owners lack the taste and skills of how to present their food in terms of ambience, décor, containers etc. I am only talking about the North American context - if you go to Chinese cities, the popular Chinese restaurants in Chinatown can hardly survive a month because customers will refuse to accept their filthy table and cracked plates, yet they can prosper for 20 years in Toronto (which is shocking for me) .

I think the above two reasons led to Chinese food never being considered "classy". I am not surprised because China used to be a very poor country and is only getting rich recently (still poor by western standards). The people have lower expectation and standard than French/Italian/Japanese which came from much more advanced societies and care a lot more about other factors of food other than taste (the Chinese care about taste and nothing else). However, it is changing. If you get the chance to visit Shanghai for example, good restaurants are as nice and elegantly designed and the food is well presented. You will not feel it is "poor food" at all, and the kind of standards we are used to in Chinatown with their smelly toilets are completely unacceptable there by the middle class (probably not even a high school student from a good family). For example, Lee Garden, the most famous and popular restaurant in Chinatown, will probably get very little business if put in Shanghai.

Chinese restaurateurs in North America have a lot to catch up, not with Japanese/French food, but even with what is happening in urban China. The Chinese just like the French are very proud of their food and established a very long history of food culture. They also boast a rich spectrum of various regional cuisine that are vastly different from each other. What is lacking is better standards (I know they are easy to slip onto the cheap path) and marketing. They should really learn from the Japanese in that respect.

I hope you will enjoy real good Chinese food some day!

 

[ElDee]

You're severely missing out if you haven't been to Susur Lee's restaurants. I would consider them more contemporary than fusion. Fusion implies a blend of cross-cultural cuisines, which I just don't see at Lee Restaurant, although maybe if you consider inter-regional Chinese cuisine to be fusion...

I think Luckee is the closest option to the refined traditional style you're looking for.

Also check out DaiLo (formerly GwaiLo). I haven't been to DaiLo, but here's Toronto Life's take on GwaiLo: http://torontolife.com/food/gwailo-preview-dinner/

Thanks for the nod for Luckee. I'm definitely hoping to try it out eventually.

And "GwaiLo"...I've been under a rock and haven't heard of this place. Laughed out loud at the name! Very surprised and amused they tried to swing it given the derogatory context behind the phrase!

 

[ShonTron]

I've been to very nice Chinese restaurants and banquet halls in Scarborough and Markham. Sure, you can argue that traditional Chinese food does not "present" in the same way that gourmet French cuisine might, but there is indeed attention to decor, food presentation, and quality at higher-end restaurants. Chinatown, in just about any city, is not normally the kind of place you'd expect to find high-end Chinese cuisine.

 

[ElDee]

to the OP, the kind of Chinese food available to Torontonians in downtown is worse than mediocre by Chinese standards. So whatever impression that leaves on it doesn't come anywhere close to what Chinese food is. As a Chinese, I can't recommend one single Chinese restaurant downtown because they are mediocre at best and the rest are simply disgusting. Not to mention the fact that they are predominantly Cantonese style, which is probably 5% of Chinese cuisine (if you go to Shanghai or Beijing, Cantonese food probably does represent 5% of the local food scene while here it is like 90%). So don't be misled into believe that's real.

however, I largely concur with you that Chinese food is poorly marketed and never enjoy the prestige Italian and Japanese do. In reality, high end Chinese food is just as sophisticated as Japanese, French and Italian, but several reasons destroyed its overall reputation. I will elaborate a bit.

1) there are way more Chinese immigrants than Japanese/French and probably Italian too, and one of their main business is restaurants. Sadly, they compete in an unhealthy way - on price rather on quality. The result is you mostly see cheap Chinese restaurants with their gross hygiene conditions, poor décor and bad service. The primary reason is that they target mostly Chinese clientele, which at least in the past used to be low income. So class is of least concern to them. Such trend persisted for decades and gives Chinese food a bad rep - almost synonymous to cheap.

2) the Chinese restaurateurs have poor marketing skills. Japanese food is an excellent example of successful marketing. If you do know food, you will quickly find that Japanese food is in fact not that complicated and doesn't have many varieties. However, the whole "package" is beautiful and elegant. The presentation is upscale. I am not denying the quality of Japanese cuisine - loved my experience in Tokyo, but compared with Chinese food, it lacks variety and options of flavour. but Chinese restaurant owners lack the taste of how to present their food in terms of ambience, décor, containers etc. I am only talking about the North American context - if you go to Chinese cities, the popular Chinese restaurants in Chinatown can hardly survive a month because customers will refuse to accept their filthy table and cracked plates, yet they can proper for 20 years in Toronto (which is shocking for me) .

I think the above two reasons led to Chinese food never being considered "classy". I am not surprised because China used to be a very poor country and is only getting rich recently (still poor by western standards). The people have lower expectation and standard than French/Italian/Japanese which came from much more advanced societies and care a lot more about other factors of food other than taste (the Chinese care about taste and nothing else). However, it is changing. If you get the chance to visit Shanghai for example, good restaurants are as nice and elegantly designed and the food is well presented. You will not feel it is "poor food" at all, and the kind of standards we are used to in Chinatown with their smelly toilets is completely unacceptable there by the middle class (probably not even a high school student from a good family). For example, Lee Garden, the most famous and popular restaurant in Chinatown, will probably get very little business if put in Shanghai.

Chinese restaurateurs in North America have a lot to catch up, not with Japanese/French food, but even with what is happening in urban China. The Chinese are just like the French are very proud of their food and established a very long history of food culture. They also boast a rich spectrum of various regional cuisine that are vastly different from each other. What is lacking is better standards (I know they are easy to slip onto the cheap path) and marketing. They should really learn from the Japanese in that respect.

I hope you will enjoy real good Chinese food some day!

Fascinating insight! Thanks for taking the time to share!

 

[UrbanLurker]

From personal experience, in term of interior decor and atmosphere, I enjoyed Dragon Legend/Dragon Pearl. But their food presentation is mediocre (well it's a buffet..)

Back in Shanghai, People 7 is a Taiwan/Shanghai fusion restaurant that's really popular hangout place for young people, and I wish we have something similar here in Toronto..

Luckee looks promising and I will probably check it out this weekend.

 

[ksun]

I've been to very nice Chinese restaurants and banquet halls in Scarborough and Markham. Sure, you can argue that traditional Chinese food does not "present" in the same way that gourmet French cuisine might, but there is indeed attention to decor, food presentation, and quality at higher-end restaurants. Chinatown, in just about any city, is not normally the kind of place you'd expect to find high-end Chinese cuisine.

I agree.

The thing is, one is easy to make the mistake of comparing a cheap Chinese restaurant where average spending is $18 to a Japanese/Italian one where one spends $45. That's just not fair. Even in GTA, there are plenty of fine dining Chinese restaurants where one can have an enjoyable, not if upscale dining experience.

Nowadays, Chinese cities pay a lot of attention to restaurants décor and ambiance, because the middle class are have higher expectation than before. For example, this is a popular restaurant called "Grandma's" in Shanghai and east China. It is by no means considered an upscale/expensive restaurants but rather the kind of place regular young white collar office workers frequent. And its inside décor is pretty much standard and expected in Shanghai.

 

[ksun]

From personal experience, in term of interior decor and atmosphere, I enjoyed Dragon Legend/Dragon Pearl. But their food presentation is mediocre (well it's a buffet..)


Back in Shanghai, People 7 is a Taiwan/Shanghai fusion restaurant that's really popular hangout place for young people, and I wish we have something similar here in Toronto..

Luckee looks promising and I will probably check it out this weekend.

Luckee is not bad but extremely overpriced due to its location.
In Scarborough and Markham, you can have the same Dim Sum for literally half of the price. If you have a car, you should try Dragon Boat in Richmond Hill or Crown Prince in Scarborough. They are of fantastic value, which is probably why there are always long lines on the weekend. Crown Prince for example, offer most dim sum for $2.8 before 11am. Trust me, it is as good as the $9 Siumai at Luckee.

From the menu, Luckee has "General Tao Beef" and "Sweet and source chicken". For a Chinese customer, that's two giant red flags screaming "westernized dishes".

 

[ElDee]

Luckee is not bad but extremely overpriced due to its location.
In Scarborough and Markham, you can have the same Dim Sum for literally half of the price. If you have a car, you should try Dragon Boat in Richmond Hill or Crown Prince in Scarborough. They are of fantastic value, which is probably why there are always long lines on the weekend. Crown Prince for example, offer most dim sum for $2.8 before 11am. Trust me, it is as good as the $9 Siumai at Luckee.

From the menu, Luckee has "General Tao Beef" and "Sweet and source chicken". For a Chinese customer, that's two giant red flags screaming "westernized dishes".

While I have no idea whether its the case or not, part of me wonders if the inclusion of General Tao Beef and Sweet & Sour chicken was done deliberately as a homage to Chinese food history in the western hemisphere?

 

[ksun]

While I have no idea whether its the case or not, part of me wonders if the inclusion of General Tao Beef and Sweet & Sour chicken was done deliberately as a homage to Chinese food history in the western hemisphere?

Could be. plus most Canadians are familiar with them, so why not missing out the sale? The target customers are not really Chinese there.
I had General Tao chicken once, and it is actually not bad.

To answer OP's question "Do we have a wide selection of Chinese food variety in Toronto?"
If you are talking about downtown or the entire area south Sheppard Ave or west of Victoria Park, then obviously not. We have a very narrow selection. The entire GTA, yes, one of the best in North America (I consider it tie with Los Angeles for the top spot).

 

[Johnny Au]

There is a Chinese banquet restaurant called "Very Fair Seafood Restaurant" located at Finch between Kennedy and Midland. It has a very modest-sounding name. However, it is anything but pedestrian friendly.

 

[grey]

While I have no idea whether its the case or not, part of me wonders if the inclusion of General Tao Beef and Sweet & Sour chicken was done deliberately as a homage to Chinese food history in the western hemisphere?

From DaiLo's website:

At the heart of the menu is a love and respect for the dishes Chef Nick Liu ate growing up as the son of Hakka parents in Canada, but importantly, they are the dishes his ancestors have been eating for hundreds of years. Ancient favourites are augmented by Liu’s signature flair and updated to suit the western palate and the modern demand for local and sustainable ingredients.

So, there you go... pretty typical for any ethnic food in the west, but keep in mind that being " brazenly inauthentic" makes for haute cuisine these days. This place is clearly the opposite of what you asked for, but probably still worth a look.

To offer another perspective, for the sake of discussion, in regards to things like Momofuku-style "upscale" ramen mentioned in the original post -- It's more than simple peasant food disguised by presentation in order to dupe uncultured customers. Chefs like David Chang in particular use experimental, cutting-edge techniques that people who are married to tradition would consider to be bastardization, but it's really an exciting evolution and a positive product of multiculturalism.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenb...de-david-changs-secret-momofuku-test-kitchen/

 

[ksun]

speaking of "western palate", what exactly is it? I never could really figure it out exactly. Here is what I know so far (correct me if wrong). Canadian customers

1) seem to enjoy deep fried food, at least at Chinese restaurants. Real Chinese food doesn't really involves a lot of deep frying. Japan actually does more than China.
2) sweet and sour flavour, with very heavy coat of sauce (think Spadina Garden on Dundas/Bay). Again, not typical Chinese cooking style.
3) no bones or shell, just large piece of meat. Only exception seems to be chicken wings/ribs. The bones seem to bother them a lot, when the Chinese love the bones/meat around the bones.
4) no animal body parts (from eye, tongues, neck to liver, intestine, stomach, feet to tails) other than just the meat.
5) prefers the white meat (for example chicken breast is preferred while 99% of Chinese prefer the red part such as the legs). This is why at KFC in China, the most popular burger has chicken thighs. Chicken breast is considered tough and tasteless, the least wanted part.
6) avoid "exotic" animals. For many, even duck/rabbit meat is considered adventurous. Pigeon? Donkey? Horse? Snake? Grasshopper?
7) no spicy food.
8) I also notice western customers like to order fried rice/noodles at Chinese restaurants, which is interesting because you hardly ever saw Chinese costumers do that. Not sure if they like it or because they are relatively familiar. No matter how famous fried rice/noodles are in North America, they are of zero importance in China. I probably have never had fried noodles in China, ever. Maybe it is a Hong Kong thing.

Anyway, I find the difference in taste is intriguing. In general I found western palate (in North America) very conservative.

 

[Johnny Au]

General Tao Chicken, which is a Chinese American dish, is claimed to be spicy and from Hunan, but the Hunanese found the dish to be too sweet for them (and most versions are not spicy to Hunanese standards).