CityPlace: St. Jamestown in waiting?

[Hipster Duck]

I've got only 2 major issues with Cityplace: the dull architecture (so far)

The architecture is comfortably dull. It isn't offensive like, say, French Quarter or the Star of Downtown, but it doesn't standout either. They work pretty well as an ensemble, like the many anonymous art deco towers of New York. I think of Cityplace as the city's second "Emerald Skyline". Plus, some of the art projects, like that weird giant sextant, are pretty cool.

...and the density--that's right, imo it's not dense enough! (Too much space wasted by puny little podiums, dead concrete and green space. Make the area a solid 40 story streetwall! Instead of 14,000 down there, the area could handle 40,000.)

YES! It's a contemporary towers-in-a-park development and too much of the space is wasted on unnecessary green space and public squares that are about as inviting to lounge around in as a pay toilet. Also, much of the ground space is devoted to car use: turning circles, garage entranceways, you name it. The St. Lawrence neighbourhood has a higher density than Cityplace and hardly any buildings exceed 12 storeys in height, all due to the streetwall effect. St. L could have been the planning blueprint for the 21st century in Toronto but instead too many of our projects ended up being like Cityplace.

 

[Hydrogen]

At the very least, Cityplace should be a destination for the people who live there. A resident should be able to shop and relax there (beyond the associated condo amenities). It would be nice to see some pubs or bars, some out-door or sidewalk cafes or resaurants beyond what is already there. Maybe some more of that will appear in the future.

 

[GovernorARNOLD]

At the very least, Cityplace should be a destination for the people who live there. A resident should be able to shop and relax there (beyond the associated condo amenities). It would be nice to see some pubs or bars, some out-door or sidewalk cafes or resaurants beyond what is already there. Maybe some more of that will appear in the future.

it has all this and more coming!

 

[Hydrogen]

Good to hear that.

 

[adma]

The St. Lawrence neighbourhood has a higher density than Cityplace and hardly any buildings exceed 12 storeys in height, all due to the streetwall effect. St. L could have been the planning blueprint for the 21st century in Toronto but instead too many of our projects ended up being like Cityplace.

Well, it still is/can be a planning blueprint, as the Massey-Harris lands prove. Indeed, it might be useful to compare/contrast CityPlace and the whole King'n'Shaw zone as goes "urban life", etc...

 

[GovernorARNOLD]

I happen to prefer Cityplace over the St. lawerence plan. Not that anything is wrong with St. lawrence,

but why is it that Cityplace is predicted to turn into slum dump, and not St lawerence and king/ Shaw. those areas are much the same type low rises all around, all in the 900 - 600 sq range. they are not built for familes either, but no one complaines about that area. why?

 

[rp07]

I know couple of friends who live in CP and for most part they love it. I don't understand why people keep bashing CP. We don't know what's going to happen in the future, but isn't the area better than what it was pre CityPlace when it was just a barren empty rail road land?

 

[doady]

I know couple of friends who live in CP and for most part they love it. I don't understand why people keep bashing CP. We don't know what's going to happen in the future, but isn't the area better than what it was pre CityPlace when it was just a barren empty rail road land?

Well, many people don't want any other people coming into their community at all, so I guess to them a barren empty rail land is preferable.

 

[GovernorARNOLD]

The likes of Adam Vaughan and many Torontonians believe CityPlace will fail as a community.

Why is Cityplace predicted to turn into slum dump, and not areas like king+Shaw & Queens Quay etc.

There are also much of the identical condos. All in the 550 - 950 sq range made by various developers. They are not built for families either, and mostly occupied by young professionals. But no one complains about those areas. If this belief of density is to fail, wouldn't downtown Toronto in general turn into a slum dump and not just CityPlace.

I posted this question in the Cityplace GM article thread, but responded. Not even Sir Novelty Fashion. Share your thoughts

 

[urbandreamer]

Because it's highly visible to the average city dwelling torontonian. Unless you live in LV or know people down there there's very little reason to gaze at those buildings. They're "hidden." Cityplace is the cheap shot for those lazy folk (politicians, me) to make fun of. Plus the condo dwellers often don't vote for left wing candidates--bash em smash em in many ways, Adam V and others probably hope CP does turn into a slum--more urban poor vote for them!

The guy is basically an elitist WASP out of touch with new Torontonians. Send the guy to Barrie--as Beez told me in another thread.

CP is indeed kinda crappy looking; but it's about 1/10 complete and the future could be brighter. Is Adam V psychic? He could end up living down there in some city-owned retirement home...!

 

[RJR123]

The likes of Adam Vaughan and many Torontonians believe CityPlace will fail as a community.

Why is Cityplace predicted to turn into slum dump, and not areas like king+Shaw & Queens Quay etc.

There are also much of the identical condos. All in the 550 - 950 sq range made by various developers. They are not built for families either, and mostly occupied by young professionals. But no one complains about those areas. If this belief of density is to fail, wouldn't downtown Toronto in general turn into a slum dump and not just CityPlace.

I posted this question in the Cityplace GM article thread, but responded. Not even Sir Novelty Fashion. Share your thoughts

Yesterday's census results showed just how much the Canadian "family" has changed. Rather than a country full of hetero parents with 2.4 children, we are a country filled with extremeley diverse households. For example, for the first time in census history there are now more couples without children, than with children. More people are choosing to live alone and/or delay marriage to focus on their careers. More families are headed by single parents. More same-sex marriages, etc. I imagine that these changes are even more magnified in Toronto.
Given this change, I'm not sure how Adam V. can link a community's success to the presence of traditional families, given that this is a shrinking portion of our overall population. The demographics of CityPlace merely reflects the changing face of our population, particularly in Toronto.

 

[unimaginative2]

Great points, urbandreamer.

GovernorArnold, the allegation makes no sense. Cityplace will obviously not turn into a slum, if only because they're condos and it's in people's interest to keep them up, and the units are too small for raising large families (unlike the very large multi-bedroom rental apartments in St. Jamestown). Adam Vaughan is indeed a WASP elitist who believes that unless you can afford a $700,000 townhouse or perhaps live the bohemian life in some loft conversion, you don't belong in "his" neighbourhood.

 

[casaguy]

"Slum" is really the wrong term. I'm not even sure we really have a traditional "slum" in Toronto.

Perhaps a more gentle way of describing many people's gut instincts about CityPlace is that it will become (although I think it already is) a neighbourhood that people do not ASPIRE to live in.

It is/will be a good starter condo for many people. A stepping stone to get to where they really want to live/be.

Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not.

But should the last great swath of downtown prime land be devoted to this?

I sure don't think so.

And I think that's the fundamental issue that's been stirring inside so many people.

Now, I will be wrong in my assessment (and will be the first to admit it) if in fact the park that is proposed is something to be rivaled and the retail and overall energy picks up. I hope it does. Big time.

No one WANTS this to fail. We're just worried it will based on what we're seeing so far.

 

[urbandreamer]

If they can move old houses on flatbed trucks today imagine what they'll be capable of moving in 2107?! CP condos shipped by barge to some poor little village--Port Dover?

By the time CP is a slum Adam Vaughan (and most of us) will most likely be dead

 

[unimaginative2]

The green space point is reasonable. There sure is a lot of it. If I remember correctly, it's 50% of the total land area of the built out project. You can't blame Cityplace for that, though. The City required it.