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City cracks down on "illegal" Food Trucks

So these trucks can't even stay open and maintain their clientele throughout the year, basically forcing them into getting some kind of secondary income for the winter months (I don't know your Cuban vendor's situation), and you don't see this as a mitigating factor of not paying some of the fixed costs associated with a restaurant? Especially with gas prices being what they are and the fact that you still usually have to staff the food truck, I don't think the disparity is as massive as you think, in favour of these trucks.

Well, we will just have to disagree on that....I think having to pay rent and taxes - no matter how busy you are - is a pretty good offset.

As I said though, they offer me nothing I need/want that I can't get elsewhere so that is the explanation I was giving on why I, personally, am not outraged by any perceived (or real) crackdown....perhaps others feel/felt the same.
 
Pretty sure they don't pay property taxes....I may be totally off base on that. Look, you and I disagree on something...but the world will keep spinning....don't worry.

Yes they do pay property taxes indirectly. They are not parking for free on these lots. They are paying a rent to the property owner who in turn pay's taxes. Of course the amount of their rent that represents property tax is tiny compared to a brick and mortar operation but this is a reflection of the fact that Food Truck operators have managed to run a business out of a tiny space.

In essence they are delivering a product much more efficiently than the brick and mortar places and this is seen as somehow "unfair".

The old argument that Food Trucks are "unfair" to the brick and mortar restaurants is just a red-herring, however accepting for a minute your argument that it is "unfair" I would respond that life is unfair. Any brick and mortar restaurant that has a problem with competition from Food Trucks need to up-their-game or go out of business. If their food is any good at all why not operate their own Food Trucks? Caplansky's does? So does Smoke's Poutinerie. Instead of complaining about "unfair" competition they are cashing in on the popularity of Food Trucks.

Last week City Hall voted against allowing Food Trucks to park in private lots after listening to a presentation from the owner of Whistlers Grille on Broadview who cited the huge tax bill on his large Restaurant & Banquet Hall as reason why he should not have to compete with Food Trucks. It was an absurd argument since I can't imagine Food Trucks wanting to set up shop at Broadview and Pottery road, and how can a Food Truck take away business from a banquet hall?

If Food Truck's were allowed to operate without restrictions downtown (from parking lots AND curbside) this would be good for restaurants in the long run.

How?

The biggest expense for Downtown restaurant are the exorbitant rent that they must pay to greedy landlords. The reason for this, of course, is the fact that there is a finite amount of space available to rent. Allowing Food Trucks to flourish downtown would have the same effect as increasing the supply of rentable space. The effect would be a downward pressure on rents which will benefit the brick & mortar restaurants.

I think ultimately the opposition to Food Trucks is all about keeping the greedy landlords happy.
 
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Pretty sure they don't pay property taxes....I may be totally off base on that. Look, you and I disagree on something...but the world will keep spinning....don't worry.

I apologize if I thought this was a valid discussion here on this discussion board. I am simply trying to wrap my head around why someone would actively campaign for less dining choices here in Toronto, when so many other cities have a vast wealth of options, from trucks, carts and traditional restaurants.
 
I apologize if I thought this was a valid discussion here on this discussion board. I am simply trying to wrap my head around why someone would actively campaign for less dining choices here in Toronto, when so many other cities have a vast wealth of options, from trucks, carts and traditional restaurants.

didn't know I was actively campaigning for anything? someone expressed surprise that there was less furor/passion in support of the trucks than they expected....I gave my personal views which, in my daily life, is more indifference/"could not care" about them than anything. I walk by them, ignore them, sometimes don't even notice them.....comfortable knowing that the food I need/want can be obtained elsewhere.
 
Ummm, yummy: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/art...tdog-carts-despite-multiple-health-violations

I know there are "good" stands out there and people who take proper health & safety measures, but since I've personally seen some nasty goings-on, I'm leery of these food stands.

For those who love 'em, great -- take your chances :). For those like me who will never use them, I can't get worked up about the issue unless the issue is shutting down the problem ones.

The owner of a fleet of hotdog carts cited for multiple health and safety violations — including a cart strewn with mouse droppings and dead rodents — has been allowed to keep operating.

Elisaveta Moskova has been selling hotdogs and sausages for almost 20 years and with her husband has held up to a dozen of the licences required to own and operate carts during that time. The city recently tried to shut her down; Toronto’s civilian licensing tribunal has given her another chance.

“I am very lucky and happy with (the tribunal’s) decision,” Moskova said in a brief interview at University Ave. and Front St. as she stood at one of her carts.

A dissenting position from one member of the tribunal’s three-person panel warns that allowing Moskova to continue operating — without conditions on all her carts and further food safety training for her and her staff — puts the public’s health at risk.

Moskova’s troubled fleet is among the 120 carts that have licences for a specific city location. Another 366 are licensed as mobile carts.

Every cart is inspected once a year by the city. The results of recent inspections for fixed carts are posted on the city’s DineSafe website.

Star research has found that Moskova’s violations are among more than 55 carts in Toronto that have received warnings in the past four years. Moskova has the highest number of carts with infractions on that list.

Last November, city inspectors found five dead mice and more than 150 mouse droppings in one of her carts operated at Simcoe St. and Queen St. W. That cart, which the tribunal agreed was a “horrific health situation,” was shut down. Moskova’s vehicle licence for the cart and the location permit — a separate city permit owners of fixed carts require to operate at a specific location — were suspended.

After Moskova attempted to obtain a new vehicle licence, the case went before the Toronto Licensing Tribunal, a quasi-judicial agency that handles appeals from people refused business licences by the city.

In opposing Moskova’s appeal, the city asked the tribunal to also review another six of her current “non-motorized refreshment vehicle licenses,” or cart licenses, citing years of poor inspection results. When asked during the hearing, a city lawyer confirmed the intent was to revoke the licences, tribunal documents show.

Among the more than 20 additional violations discovered by inspectors at the Simcoe cart and three others owned by Moskova between 2008 and 2011:

• Hotdogs found defrosting in a white plastic garbage bag.

• Hotdogs left on a cold grill for more than an hour after operators walked away from the cart.

• Condiments left exposed at unattended carts.

• No thermometers to measure temperature.

• No running water or a place for operators to thoroughly wash their hands.

• Operators failing to wash their hands while serving food and not wearing proper headgear.

• Operators not using the proper utensils to ensure food safety.

City records show Moskova is listed as the operator of at least two of the four carts. She told the tribunal that employees work at those locations and most if not all the problems occurred when she was not at the carts.

She blamed overzealous inspectors for the number of tickets and said competitors also made false complaints about her business.

In a letter to the tribunal, the city’s Municipal Licensing and Standards Division called the problems at the carts “crucial and significant health violations,” and stated that allowing Moskova to remain in business could pose “a significant risk to public health and safety.”

The tribunal determined that only two carts were bad enough to justify punishment. The licence for the Simcoe cart was denied and a second licence was put on probation.

In its written reasons, the tribunal said Moskova demonstrated a “sincere desire” to run her business with “honesty and integrity.”

The city is reviewing the decision, a spokesperson confirmed.

When approached by the Star in June, Moskova declined to comment on the infestation or the evidence before the tribunal.

Asked about the city’s position, she said, “I cannot fight with a big city.”

Moskova told the tribunal she didn’t know about the mice, citing stress from family issues for her lapse in supervision and blaming the Simcoe cart operator for not telling her the scale of the problem, according to tribunal transcripts.

Moskova also said she has operated a cart in the city for 16 years without a single ticket and pledged to keep a close eye on her carts and employees.

City lawyer Rosanne Giulietti had argued Moskova’s operation needed to be shut down. “There is no sanitation here,” said Giulietti, according to tribunal transcripts.

“From her own mouth you’re hearing this is not someone who, in my submission, neither knows, but more importantly, cares what proper food handling is,” said Giulietti.

The tribunal ruled in April that for a cart or owner to face a penalty there must be proof that a law was broken. Because some of the carts had no record of health violations, or charges and convictions were pending, the tribunal concluded it could not judge or penalize Moskova’s businesses as a whole.

The tribunal’s decision to only apply penalties to two carts was not unanimous.

Dissenting member Diane Hall wrote the combined problems at the carts “present a compelling picture of a person who did not concern herself with the law before she was compelled to do so.” She wanted Moskova’s remaining six licences put on probation and for her and her staff to participate in training on food safety.

“I can not overstate the extreme hazardous conditions that brought this matter to the tribunal and that in my view, demonstrates (Moskova’s) disregard for the health and safety of both her employees and the public who eat at her hotdog carts,” said Hall.

Tribunal member Ted Yao was sympathetic to Moskova and later disagreed with the decision to refuse the new licence for the Simcoe St. cart, noting in his reasons he would have put the cart on probation in part because Moskova relies on it for her livelihood.

Most of Moskova’s licences up for review were for carts usually set up near Union Station and Queen and Simcoe Sts. Construction at Union Station has kept many of her carts closed.

Moskova told the tribunal not all of her carts operate regularly and the Simcoe St. cart was a key source of revenue.

A new hotdog cart belonging to a different owner now operates at the busy Simcoe and Queen Sts. corner.

The Simcoe cart’s track record shows it can take years for action on an unsafe cart.

Its operator, Mansour Gholampour-Nadjar (who works for Moskova), was issued conditional passes under the city’s DineSafe program in 2007, 2008 and 2010 for storing food at unsafe temperatures, failing to ensure food wasn’t contaminated, not having a functioning sink for hand washing and failing to wash surfaces as required inside the cart. He could not be reached to comment.

Conditional passes mean Moskova or her operators must rectify the problem within 48 hours.

In November 2011, an inspector made a routine visit to the Simcoe St. stand operated by Gholampour-Nadjar.

The cart reeked of mouse urine and shelves and surfaces were littered with more than 150 mouse droppings, inspectors estimated. A metal box trap contained four decomposing mice and a fifth “fresh” body was in a white bucket on the ground. Blue-grey rodent poison had been consumed and tracked throughout the cart.

Inspectors also found chewed insulation and said it was likely being used with rodent hair to construct a nest.

The mouse infestation and a buildup of bugs, grease and dirt had gone unchecked for “at least a month, even longer,” the tribunal heard. The cart’s sink was also not operating, so Gholampour-Nadjar had nowhere to wash his hands.

Moskova told the tribunal she was “shocked” at the infestation and alleged Gholampour-Nadjar had drug and medical problems and was on the verge of retirement.

Moskova said she was inside the cart two weeks before the inspection and didn’t see mice or droppings. She said Gholampour-Nadjar told her he had seen mice and rats after construction in the area and put in a trap, but in later calls said there was no problem.

Moskova said her son was suffering with serious mental health issues and she suspected Gholampour-Nadjar didn’t want to add to her stress.

Moskova was fined $1,800 for the mice and $1,100 for the sink.

What can the public do to ensure a cart is safe?

Unlike restaurants, which must display a DineSafe sign to alert the public to inspection results, the city’s public health department does not require hotdog stands to display inspection results.

While restaurants are inspected three times a year, hotdog carts are considered lower risk because the food is precooked and are typically inspected once a year.

The DineSafe website provides inspection information for 120 fixed-location hotdog carts but does not post the results for the remaining 366 mobile carts.

Closures are rare, with only three carts, including the one owned by Moskova, closed in the past four years, according to records provided by the city.

At the tribunal, Moskova explained that the hand washing and food storage issues did not pose a threat to her customers’ safety.

Hotdogs are handled with utensils and rarely come into contact with operators’ hands, she said. Moskova also said the reason inspectors discovered thawing hotdogs in a garbage bag at one stand was because the factory that made the product delivered it that way.
 
Exactly. The fact that they are potentially taking someone's livelihood away should not trump overall health and safety concerns.
 
PinkLucy:

Exactly. The fact that they are potentially taking someone's livelihood away should not trump overall health and safety concerns.

Indeed. Besides, the owner has a fleet of these things.

AoD
 
It looks like the City is going to chase away the Gourmet Food trucks that have recently turned up in Downtown parking lots (Church & Queen) :mad:

Food Trucks like "Food Cabbie" which is run by a chef from Napa Valley and serves up "American style" burgers and Philly beef steak sandwiches (among other delicious things) have been told that they must vacate the parking lot at the end of the month.:mad:

You can read more about this at the below link where you will find a link to an online petition. I have emailed the local councilors and anyone opposed to seeing these food trucks pushed out of the city should do likewise.

http://www.blogto.com/eat_drink/2012/03/toronto_begins_cracking_down_on_illegal_food_trucks/

Email these councilors:

councillor_wongtam@toronto.ca

councillor_mcconnell@toronto.ca

Check out some of the food options!

http://torontofoodtrucks.ca/toronto-food-trucks-continue-to-grow-in-popularity-video


No. These food trucks are illegal, not "illegal".
 
If they are paying their taxes, if they aren't violating any hygienic laws and they are not in the parking lot illegally - I don't see reason why should they be banned.
 
that is the dumbest consideration ... oh her livelihood. phewf
if this was a restaurant, it would be immediately shut down.

if anything, because it's her 'livelihood', enforcing regulations would make people accountable.

if a condo wasn't built up to specs and started to deteriorate before 'registration' with the city,
should it still be allowed to continue and have the unit owners take it over because it affects the developer's livelihood ?!?


Exactly. The fact that they are potentially taking someone's livelihood away should not trump overall health and safety concerns.

PinkLucy:

Indeed. Besides, the owner has a fleet of these things.

AoD
 
If they are paying their taxes, if they aren't violating any hygienic laws and they are not in the parking lot illegally - I don't see reason why should they be banned.
They should be banned of course, because they provide competition to mortar and brick restaurant establishments, who contribute generously to their councillors election budget.
 

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