Toronto Aga Khan Museum + Ismaili Centre | ?m | ?s | Aga Khan Dev. | Maki and Associates

you have the problem of an office building in the center of museum grounds.

I am not positive about the new site plan but the building is on the edge of the site, and unless the new campus plans to build close to Eglinton, and I do not think that it does, the building would have remained on the edge of the campus.
 
Actually, Bata *didn't* look so exclusively like an office building; its templar form could easily have re-conveyed itself as an museological-or-otherwise institution...

You might as well say the Tate Modern wouldn't have been successful because the premises looked too much like a power plant;-)
Well, I don't quite understand the Tate/old Bata HO argument. The Tate Building is a huge shell that is housing modern to contemporary art. Much of which was made the last 50 years from within industrial buildings; the enormous shell allowed them to create Turbine Hall (imo, the best art space in the world). I can't quite see a similar connection between Islamic art and the old Bata HO. As well I can't see the old Bata HO staying without being drastically modified from within (and, imo, gutting its soul). Hence my remark of the possibility for the building to be used for office space for the museum or Ismali Centre.

I can tell your quite passionate about the Bata HO but if the city said, 'no, you have to leave this building intact' there's a very good chance the foundation would look for another city. Just like they did when London didn't allow them to modify a building (if I recall right) on the South Bank; they decided to look at they're second choice, Toronto. So, if you had the choice to make, which would it be: keeping the old Bata HO or allowing the Aga Kahn foundation build a museum and cultural center? Unfortunately, I believe this was the choice.

I am not positive about the new site plan but the building is on the edge of the site, and unless the new campus plans to build close to Eglinton, and I do not think that it does, the building would have remained on the edge of the campus.
Hmm, Ya got me thinking where this is in relation to the plans. Here is the location of the old Bata HO (thank you, Google Earth) in relation to the new plans.
1958728428_18bac3f19c.jpg


The position seems to have some similarities to the proposed building behind it. Hmm.
 
Well, I don't quite understand the Tate/old Bata HO argument. The Tate Building is a huge shell that is housing modern to contemporary art. Much of which was made the last 50 years from within industrial buildings; the enormous shell allowed them to create Turbine Hall (imo, the best art space in the world). I can't quite see a similar connection between Islamic art and the old Bata HO. As well I can't see the old Bata HO staying without being drastically modified from within (and, imo, gutting its soul). Hence my remark of the possibility for the building to be used for office space for the museum or Ismali Centre.
My point was less about the specific kind of projected purpose/conversion required--after all, Bata could have been kept for functionally-appropriate administrative purposes, with minimal drastic modification necessary, exactly as you say (so what's the big problem?)--than about architectural imagery. That is, compared to most of its modernist corporate-office contemporaries, Bata projected a monumentality that could have translated quite well into cultural/museological symbolism--at least of a generic sort: it's the most "templar" building around these parts. (Though yes, I agree and have expressed as much before: when it comes to Islamic art, Bata's imagery may be too "Greco-Roman" for comfort.)

Besides, if one were to be real picky about drastic modifications and gutted soul, to the point of ruling out even an administrative-office conversion, you might as well suggest that *no* so-called sympathetic conversion of Bata is possible, not even by a client that's not Aga Khan, i.e. once Bata left, that was soul-gutting enough, unless Sonja decided to move her shoe museum up here, you have to euthanize. And perhaps that's truer to the unsentimental modernist spirit; once the time comes, the time comes (maybe that informed Sonja Bata's POV in selling out?)

I can tell your quite passionate about the Bata HO but if the city said, 'no, you have to leave this building intact' there's a very good chance the foundation would look for another city. Just like they did when London didn't allow them to modify a building (if I recall right) on the South Bank; they decided to look at they're second choice, Toronto. So, if you had the choice to make, which would it be: keeping the old Bata HO or allowing the Aga Kahn foundation build a museum and cultural center? Unfortunately, I believe this was the choice.

I'm only passionate enough insofar as there *is* an argument, however hypothetical, to be made, and too many of the counter-arguments have a week-kneedness to them. Besides, other than the fact that it was offered at all, why would the Foundation have been so beholden to this specific site, and *only* this site? And on top of that, if you're asking me why I'm so so-called passionate t/w Bata, I might as well ask, why are *you* so passionate re Aga Khan? Because it makes us look ooh-aah-world-class? It's like with Olympics and World's Fairs; if the Foundation chose another city, would we be *that* much worse off? So, Aga Khan decides to pass Toronto by. Big deal; it won't make us go down the tubes.

Okay, that last argument is a touch on the flippant side, and I'll agree that there's a weak-kneedness (however understandable) to plenty of those making the heritage argument as well, i.e. there seems to be little or no regard to what's replacing Bata, institutionally *and* architecturally. It's all about Bata, Bata, Bata, and what's replacing it might as well be akin to what's replacing Inn On The Park. (Whereas the more astute heritage proponents recognize that had Bata had been specifically earmarked for retention rather than redlined for removal from the start, we might not be going through this fuss, Bata would have registered as opportunity rather than obstacle, Aga Khan might have found a means to "adapt", there'd been room for Correa and a Maki as well, we'd have our cake and eat it too, everybody'd be happy bla bla bla. Instead, we have the most illustrious case of sacrificing a landmark on behalf of a landmark since Carrere & Hastings' Bank of Toronto fell for the T-D Centre over 40 years ago...)
 
adma:

And on top of that, if you're asking me why I'm so so-called passionate t/w Bata, I might as well ask, why are *you* so passionate re Aga Khan? Because it makes us look ooh-aah-world-class? It's like with Olympics and World's Fairs; if the Foundation chose another city, would we be *that* much worse off? So, Aga Khan decides to pass Toronto by. Big deal; it won't make us go down the tubes.

Actually, if you ask me to choose between a disused, albeit historical and important building by a local Modernist and two new buildings, designed by intenationally known architects and housing new functions, all at a global calibre, then yes, passing it by would have been a great mistake. It might not make us go down the tubes, but the payoff is certainly a great deal less than saving Bata.

For some truly Modenist presevationist fights - one should be saving the energy for what was Union Carbide, Riverdale Hospital, etc - which were/are to be replace by likely crap architecture.

AoD
 
Actually, if you ask me to choose between a disused, albeit historical and important building by a local Modernist and two new buildings, designed by intenationally known architects and housing new functions, all at a global calibre, then yes, passing it by would have been a great mistake. It might not make us go down the tubes, but the payoff is certainly a great deal less than saving Bata.

For some truly Modenist presevationist fights - one should be saving the energy for what was Union Carbide, Riverdale Hospital, etc - which were/are to be replace by likely crap architecture.

AoD

Well, that's where my "most illustrious case of sacrificing a landmark on behalf of a landmark since Carrere & Hastings' Bank of Toronto fell for the T-D Centre over 40 years ago" thing comes in. Unless something like the de-Barton Myers-ing of AGO counts (and I'm counting that more than the more picky and subjective arguments about Libeskind supposedly raping the ROM, et al) we haven't seen anything quite like this in four decades. To the preservationist realm, this elevated level of "starchitecture as a Trojan horse" is unfamiliar.

Which is why, really, the best strategy is to de-Hobsonize your choice by offering a third way, i.e. retention of the old, + welcoming the global-calibre new. When it's a simple either/or, it feeds into the skepticism people have about starchitects and preservationists alike...
 
Well, that's where my "most illustrious case of sacrificing a landmark on behalf of a landmark since Carrere & Hastings' Bank of Toronto fell for the T-D Centre over 40 years ago" thing comes in. Unless something like the de-Barton Myers-ing of AGO counts (and I'm counting that more than the more picky and subjective arguments about Libeskind supposedly raping the ROM, et al) we haven't seen anything quite like this in four decades. To the preservationist realm, this elevated level of "starchitecture as a Trojan horse" is unfamiliar

Which is why, really, the best strategy is to de-Hobsonize your choice by offering a third way, i.e. retention of the old, + welcoming the global-calibre new. When it's a simple either/or, it feeds into the skepticism people have about starchitects and preservationists alike...

The third choice, while welcomed if it were to be offered, isn't exactly necessary. Certainly from my perspective, isn't like one would necessarily veto the demolition option even if there is a proposal that ended up saving the Bank of Toronto for its' own sake, at the risk of perverting the vision of the project (just think of having not having the Banking Pavillion in the case of TD Centre). As bitter is the loss is, the end product, IMO, justified the act with a minimum of regrets.

AoD
 
Certainly from my perspective, isn't like one would necessarily veto the demolition option even if there is a proposal that ended up saving the Bank of Toronto for its' own sake, at the risk of perverting the vision of the project (just think of having not having the Banking Pavillion in the case of TD Centre). As bitter is the loss is, the end product, IMO, justified the act with a minimum of regrets.

However, the same goes for TD as goes for Bata: had the Bank of Toronto been allowed for *from the beginning* (which might involve the unlikely scenario of a mature Beaux-Arts-friendly heritage preservationist culture in the early-to-mid 1960s), it might have negated a lot of that concern about "perverting the vision of the project", as the project would have been crafted to new site conditions. (Yeah, so we'd have no banking-pavillion-as-we-know-it; big deal, we might have had something else to compensate. And if Mies wouldn't put up with said "adjusted" site conditions at all, big deal, too. Even if we adore what he did, it isn't like we *really* needed him.) Once the project was well underway, though, it was too late...

Which is another way of saying, if you'd gladly do it all over again in 2007 (well, let's say, advocating ripping down a now nearly century-old Bank of Toronto on behalf of a Mies-equivalent for today), I'd gladly stave in your skull with a crowbar...
 
... I might as well ask, why are *you* so passionate re Aga Khan? Because it makes us look ooh-aah-world-class?...
I can't say I'm that passionate about Aga Khan (I didn't even know him :p) But I do know that I had to go to other cities to get an appreciation for Islamic art; and what I saw at the Louve (where the AKC is temporarily) is a collection that I've only seen in museums such as the British Museum, Louve, and MET. I don't know about this 'world class' thing--all I know is that you don't hear this term in reference to a city outside of Canada.

...if the Foundation chose another city, would we be *that* much worse off?
No, but we would have one less museum. I suppose it would be up to how much an individual would consider this museum important.
adma:



Actually, if you ask me to choose between a disused, albeit historical and important building by a local Modernist and two new buildings, designed by intenationally known architects and housing new functions, all at a global calibre, then yes, passing it by would have been a great mistake. It might not make us go down the tubes, but the payoff is certainly a great deal less than saving Bata.

For some truly Modenist presevationist fights - one should be saving the energy for what was Union Carbide, Riverdale Hospital, etc - which were/are to be replace by likely crap architecture.

AoD
Absolutely Agree.

One criticism for the new plans:
After viewing the AKM/IC layout it has the main entrance from Wynford Dr. and seems to turn its back on Eglinton (and hence public trans.). I can't see even a walkway leading to Eg. Seems strange. Hopefully I'm just missing something.
 
Site plan approval has not been given yet for the first phase of development so we are still looking at more time and once it is given, there will be a Foundation Ceremony comming very soon for the new Ismaili Centre.

Hey 3xotic: If site plan approval has not yet been given and North York Council passed the following motion at its meeting of September 19, 2005:

"(2) request the City Solicitor, prior to the City Council’s meeting on September
28, 2005, to obtain an undertaking from the Aga Khan Foundation Canada
not to demolish the Bata building until site plan approval and a building
permit is available
for the Ismaili Centre; and
(3) request the Director, Policy and Research, Planning Division and Director,
Community Planning, to obtain an undertaking from the Aga Khan
Foundation Canada to properly document the Bata building as part of the site
plan for the new Ismaili Centre.
B. Councillor Moscoe, Ward 15 – Eglinton-Lawrence, moved that the North York Community Council recommend that City Council request the Aga Khan Foundation to incorporate an installation on the site to commemorate the Bata International building as an important example of modernist architectural design, and in so doing, request the Aga Khan Foundation to work with the Toronto Preservation Board, the Toronto Society of Architects and appropriate staff in Heritage Preservation Services, Policy and Research, City Planning Division."

....then why has demolition started?
 
Were not heritage status changes made and/or requested for the Bata building only after the building was purchased? I don't think the heritage folks had any real comment till 2005, and I'm not sure of all their motivation for not doing anything to that point. Someone actually wanted to make it a car dealership previously.

Well, first of all, it was already on the inventory, albeit not yet designated, so it already had a preliminary heritage status, and thus was there to be "flagged". And secondly, it depends on what you mean by "heritage folks": the heritage community was on its case practically from the moment Aga Khan appeared on the radar back around 2002 or so. With (not altogether un-understandable) bureaucracy, red tape, and all, it wasn't until 2005 that the Toronto Preservation Board got down to taking action through a bid to designate; but it wasn't like it wasn't being gauged and monitored in the interim, either. (If you didn't notice, then heritage isn't on your radar unless it "has to be" via preservation staff bureaucracy.)

If you're wondering about "their motivation for not doing anything to that point": well, besides the bureaucracy/red tape part, it's the same old story--nobody saw the threat coming until it came. So, absence of threat = absence of motivation.

And oh yes, the fact that it's a relatively recent and "Modern" building--which, given the merits, isn't necessarily a problem with the preservation community (after all, it was already on the inventory); but it can be a problem with self-styled friend-of-heritage politicians and mere mortals who're still struggling with an entrenched stereotype of "heritage" meaning "100 years old" or "historic-style design", and might find a crusade like this to be a quixotic hard sell even if Aga Khan wasn't involved.

Oh, and re "car dealership": I'm not sure whether you have Bata confused w/Inn On The Park (though I wouldn't be surprised if such an enterprise were proposed here, either)

BTW, keep in mind that I'm beyond fighting on behalf of Bata because, face it, if we're dealing with a clean slate we *are* dealing with a 13th-hour crusade against a superior replacement (I'm not saying "superior to Bata"; I'm merely saying "superior"). I'm merely stating what "could have been", had the cards been configured differently on behalf of the existing building--and it needn't have been "inferior", either.

And if you didn't catch wind of so-called "real comment" among heritage folks until 2005; well, look at it this way, there was probably even less "real comment" accompanying the Bank of Toronto demolition for Mies' TD, because heritage regulation and activism as we know it scarcely existed then, much less on behalf of a 50-year-old Beaux-Arts crock...
 
Seems to me that City Council has made a distinction between interior and exterior. I noticed someone mentioned there was interesting wood inside. Anyone have pictures of interior elements that may have been particularly interesting? I'm suspecting there haven't been too many shared as the building has never really been a public building.

Please see attached for interior photos.
 

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Brit, many thanks for the pics. What a loss for this city.

You're welcome! Another of my "favourite" Toronto buildings bites the dust. Union Carbide and Inn on the Park are bad enough but Bata takes the cake. I remember the first time I saw it when I was a kid in the '60s. They used to floodlight the exterior at night, and I remember thinking wow, this is the future, and what a great time we live in. Said it before and I'll say it again, breaks my heart. I've attached another interior shot.
 

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Walli, I crown you 'Official Apologist' to the Aga Khan. The title comes with a virtual Office Of Spin, but no stipend. Sorry 'bout that.

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