Toronto Time and Space Condos | 101.8m | 29s | Pemberton | Wallman Architects
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CityPainter
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Haha, no, south between Front and Esplanade. I've walked it several times a day for a good decade, trust me, it's brutal in the winter! But you are correct, I will survive. Onwards.
slicecom
Active Member
If they just mirrored the retail that is on the southwest corner onto the southeast corner, it would be a huge improvement. I suppose the developer makes a lot more off of the ground level townhouse units than retail though.
arvelomcquaig
Active Member
Finally, some decent density and substantial street wall in a proposal. I love it. But yes, there should be at least one storey of retail along all of the ground level faces.
Can the City enforce or encourage retail, or is it completely up to the developer?
Can the City enforce or encourage retail, or is it completely up to the developer?
DSC
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Though it may improve when this (too large) building is finished; I would say that if you look at the kind of retail that is now on the west side of Lower Sherbourne and the east side of Princess we really do not need more of it. (Currently among the retail is a Coffee Time, a hair salon, a dry-cleaner, a small pharmacy, a pizza place, a coin laundry and a dreadful hardware store.)
TheKingEast
Senior Member
Don't like it. Site is way too small for all of the density they're trying to cram in there.
DouginTO
New Member
I like certain aspects of the design like the courtyard, the widened sidewalks and the podiums but would like to see maybe taller towers, but only two (one on the northwest and the other on the southeast) to open it up a bit more. The courtyard could be welcoming for small cafe patios, benches, maybe a fountain. I think density is warranted here because of proximity to the Gardiner, King street car, Union station and the Waterfront.
stjames2queenwest
Senior Member
Ya I agree taller but fewer towers would be ideal in my books. But they seem very concerned about height there. Honestly just build it. It wil be an improvement regardless of what gets built.
slicecom
Active Member
There were those saying "just build it" to the first proposal, but that one was awful at street level. I'm glad they've been forced to improve it.
Automation Gallery
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Yeah, but its still not good enough to most market area residents that dont like it tall
Skeezix
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The City, or the OMB on appeal, could require retail, and dictate where it goes, in whatever zoning by-law gets approved for this site.
We shouldn't be planning based on the quality of the retail today. When you look at old photos (70s, 80s, even 90s) of some of the commercial strips in central Toronto (some even more recent), the retail was really crappy on what are today healthy and attractive retail stretches. If we let the developer deaden what should be a commercial strip with grade-related residential units, simply because the area retail at this moment in time is less than desirable, then we are using land use planning to compound today's problems, rather than to create a better neighbourhood.
Last edited:
Gido
New Member
Copy my comment from front page article.
Single floor retail with a parking garage above on the north end? Nothing quite animates Front St. such as that. Throw in a bank on each corner, Shoppers in the middle and we have yet another blank wall, this seems to be the standard for Toronto, aim somewhere below the middle, sell it as amazing pedestrian experience.
Is there any reason that the entire garage cannot be put underground?
Perhaps the POPS Could run North/South and East/West. Service off of Princess Street?
The residents lobbies should face both the Courtyard and the Street(Lobbies should be larger "hallway style" Who actually uses them? The Standard two chair, two sofa's are used how often?) Give back space to retail- I am certain the number of people coming to this area can fully support a complete first/second floor wrap around of real retail for the entire site.
If for whatever reason the north end needs to be a solid wall, a second/third floor day care, library, community hub? This new proposal is nearly there, but 8-9 above ground parking levels should be the last thing above ground here.
Single floor retail with a parking garage above on the north end? Nothing quite animates Front St. such as that. Throw in a bank on each corner, Shoppers in the middle and we have yet another blank wall, this seems to be the standard for Toronto, aim somewhere below the middle, sell it as amazing pedestrian experience.
Is there any reason that the entire garage cannot be put underground?
Perhaps the POPS Could run North/South and East/West. Service off of Princess Street?
The residents lobbies should face both the Courtyard and the Street(Lobbies should be larger "hallway style" Who actually uses them? The Standard two chair, two sofa's are used how often?) Give back space to retail- I am certain the number of people coming to this area can fully support a complete first/second floor wrap around of real retail for the entire site.
If for whatever reason the north end needs to be a solid wall, a second/third floor day care, library, community hub? This new proposal is nearly there, but 8-9 above ground parking levels should be the last thing above ground here.
Copy from my reply to Gido's comment from the front page article.
I'm not sure where you see the blank wall in this proposal. As the story notes, the garage is hidden within the north podium. What it fails to elaborate on is that the garage is hidden behind suites, so no-one will know it's there.
42
I'm not sure where you see the blank wall in this proposal. As the story notes, the garage is hidden within the north podium. What it fails to elaborate on is that the garage is hidden behind suites, so no-one will know it's there.
42
Gido
New Member
Thanks for the clarification 42
Razz
Senior Member
222 The Esplanade is the 13 storey white condo building in the foreground of the photo below. Pemberton's project will spring up immediately west of it. 222 Esplanade set the high water mark for buildings in the St. Lawrence neighbourhood many years ago. The four proposed buildings, ranging in height from 25 to 33 storeys, will be in sharp contrast to the surrounding built form and completely out of character with this predominantly low to mid rise residential neighbourhood. King + Condos (17 storeys) at the sec of King & Sherbourne had become the tallest nearby building, but its influence on the SLN was muted by that fact that it was on the northern fringe of the district and formed part of an existing cluster of similar height buildings. Likewise with the Globe & Mail Centre at King & Berkeley St. (17 office floors with 2-storey mechanical penthouse). Both of these "tall" buildings are situated on King Street and seem appropriate for greater height and massing given the commercial nature of the street. The lands south of Front Street are predominantly residential and built out to a low to mid rise scale. One of the biggest objections that the planning department and local residents had to Cityzen's recent OMB approved twin 26-storey condo project on the nwc of Front & Sherbourne was that it would create a precedent for what would eventually be developed on the Pemberton site opposite, which it has of course as evidenced by Pemberton's current development proposal before the OMB.
While I agree with the majority of the forum contributors who much prefer Pemberton's current development proposal to the two earlier versions, it doesn't alleviate my concerns about what impact it will have on the look, feel and character of the neighbourhood if approved as is. Development of the two vacant parking lot sites on the opposite corners of Front & Sherbourne is a welcomed event to be sure, but I am concerned about their scale, particularly the Pemberton site and how it relates to The Esplanade and in the context of the surrounding improvements. I'm fine with a 10 storey podium fronting all four street edges with generous set backs along The Esplanade and Sherbourne Street, but as I study the renderings, this concept plan seems way too dense and overcrowded, with inadequate spacing between the towers. I would like to see the planning department and city council support the project but with a maximum of 3 towers and reduced heights of something in the order of 14 to 20 storeys. I know that will not happen, but I feel it would be an appropriate compromise that local residents could begrudgingly support.
Taken Sept. 6th, 2015
While I agree with the majority of the forum contributors who much prefer Pemberton's current development proposal to the two earlier versions, it doesn't alleviate my concerns about what impact it will have on the look, feel and character of the neighbourhood if approved as is. Development of the two vacant parking lot sites on the opposite corners of Front & Sherbourne is a welcomed event to be sure, but I am concerned about their scale, particularly the Pemberton site and how it relates to The Esplanade and in the context of the surrounding improvements. I'm fine with a 10 storey podium fronting all four street edges with generous set backs along The Esplanade and Sherbourne Street, but as I study the renderings, this concept plan seems way too dense and overcrowded, with inadequate spacing between the towers. I would like to see the planning department and city council support the project but with a maximum of 3 towers and reduced heights of something in the order of 14 to 20 storeys. I know that will not happen, but I feel it would be an appropriate compromise that local residents could begrudgingly support.
Taken Sept. 6th, 2015
