With the benefit of hindsight, how to change Canada's immigration policy?

Fair enough, but the end result is still that we are a pretty well balanced country, ethnically speaking. There is no real comparison in Canada to some of the Muslim ghettos in Europe, or the Barrios in L.A.* We don't have on particularly overwhelming immigrant group.

*Actually, the exception would be the native reserves. Those places are like Haiti.

Dichotomy said:

Why did Serbia collapse in the worse slaughter since WWII?

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What?! While tens of thousands did perish in the Third Balkan War of 1991 to 2001, this is but a blip in history to the 800,000 that died in Rwanda. What about the estimated 100-500,000 slaughtered by Idi Amin? What about the estimated 2 million Cambodians killed by the Khmer Rouge in the 1970s? There is a world outside of Europe you know.

By the way, I want to make a comment about an earlier topic. When people criticize "multiculturalism" as a policy, it's strange to accuse them of being racist because multiculturalism itself is keeping different groups away from each other and separate. A Chinese immigrant comes to Canada and finds a huge Chinese community with everything written in Chinese and everything completely familiar, what need is there to ever have contact outside of that community? So this is echoed in each community and there won't be enough contact between them and they'll remain separate....and how is that diverse....? Multiculturalism is what keeps people with their "own kind", just like black people were restricted to being with their own kind in the days of segregation in the U.S.

like mentioned before in this thread, some people take culture too seriously. it's when different groups of people can talk to each other, get along & not be offended or worry about being offensive that we have succeeded as a society.

people should not take their own or others' national origin, ethnicity & culture seriously to the point where they are arrogant about it. any aspects of a culture that are harmful do not deserve any respect simply because of multiculturalism.

I agree with your second point but I still don't think fragmented groups in Canada will ever be a good thing. Being able to talk to each other shouldn't be the goal of Canadians, it should be living in a truly diverse society rather than different groups who walk by each other on the street as they go to their own communities. Which is just as much an example of segregation as any other.

Rather than adding to the discussion, why do some people have to resort to name calling and snide remarks?

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If you want a serious "adult" conversation, start with posting like an adult and getting your facts straight.

Multiculturalism can be mistaken for the melting pot. It was pointed out to me when I moved here that Toronto isn't a melting pot, it's a salad. Where our differences are embraced and we live together allowed to celebrate them. Whereas in the US you have attempts at forced assimilation upon immigrants. They want them Americanized as quickly as possible.

Dichotomy, my point regarding Family Class immigration was about the US system where our families are not recognized. My family being directly affected by the prejudice the US shovels out like manure while ironically claiming itself land of the freedom and opportunity (for some).

Mot said:

Multiculturalism can be mistaken for the melting pot. It was pointed out to me when I moved here that Toronto isn't a melting pot, it's a salad. Where our differences are embraced and we live together allowed to celebrate them. Whereas in the US you have attempts at forced assimilation upon immigrants. They want them Americanized as quickly as possible.

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People 'choose' to go to the USA and have that assimilation 'forced' upon them because it's the better life, or way of life, they seek. No identity crisis there.

theone said:

...I still don't think fragmented groups in Canada will ever be a good thing. Being able to talk to each other shouldn't be the goal of Canadians, it should be living in a truly diverse society rather than different groups who walk by each other on the street as they go to their own communities. Which is just as much an example of segregation as any other.

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I agree completely with this point of view. Multiculturalism leads to fragmentation whereas the melting pot leads to diversity with shared community.

Alvin said:

Indeed, that's why we have to be really careful when we talk (much less implement policies) about national ethos and identity - because more often than not these are subtle and not so subtle levers of exclusion.

What we should demand of immigrants is that they follow the law - our law - because that's what's demanded of every other citizen (and violations in this area should NOT be treated lightly). Everything else we should accord them maximal freedom - and that's very Canadian.

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...which may then be the very sort of 'ethos' or 'identity' we are talking about.

The kids born here are as Canadian as Canadian can be, though, regardless of the fact that Grandma can still only speak Cantonese or Urdu.

Tewder said:

People 'choose' to go to the USA and have that assimilation 'forced' upon them because it's the better life, or way of life, they seek. No identity crisis there.

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The fact that people made the choice to go to the US or Canada does not negate the point that the assimilation of the melting pot is simply to force them to change to satisfy the wants of the majority.

Convenient metonyms aside, Canada's "multi-culturalism" is functionally identical to the USA's "melting pot". People make a big deal out of what each system encourages and discourages, but in practice there is no difference. An immigrant moving to San Fancisco or Boston will not be "assimilated" any more forcefully or thoroughly than an immigrant moving to Toronto or Vancouver. Quite frankly, i don't even understand what multi-culturalism is. I have never seen it in action.

The most common proof of multi-culturalism's impacts are the various ethnic enclaves which dot the GTA. These is nothing to suggest that these enclaves are the result of any government policy however, rather consumer choice. Outside of Signapore, no industrialized country regulates where someone can live based on racial quotas. If we abandoned the symbolic policy of multi-culturalism, there is no reason to suggest we would and hence no reason to suggest immigrants would behave any differently than current. More over, numerous cases exist of ethnic clustering in all countries. A visit to South L.A. or Atlanta will show quite clearly that, fruitcake or melting pot, the US is in many ways far more ethnicly segregated than Canada. Even more so with the predominantly Muslim Suburbs in Europe. Even in Canada, early European immigrants organized themselves based on nationality. Kitchener (aka Berlin) even retained the German continental system of roadways!

Multi-culturalism doesn't exist. It is the logical extension of individual rights and personnel freedoms that have been building over the past centuries. Immigrants don't do anything because of multi-culturalism. Sikhs choose to live in Malton because they like it, not because some government policy tells them to preserve their culture. Barring some kind of nationalistic indoctrination and mandatory patriotism camps, a disturbing throwback to the 1930s, we aren't loosing the fruit cake or salad.

There is a difference. I don't see a Canadian equivalent of Lou Dobb's screaming on TV every night how immigrants are destroying the nation.

I don't see White Pride groups openly existing in Canada, to the point they actually have rallys. I have yet to see skin heads openly displaying hate here.

I don't see people giving others dirty looks for speaking their native tongues here in Toronto. Many times in the US I have witnessed extreme rudeness in these situations toward the non english speaker.

You also do not have a strong political party (Republicans) openly bashing immigrants for votes from a racist base.

So I'd say there is something to this multicultarlism approach we have here.

And I disagree and think that you can change certain policies which encourage less "fragmentation". For one thing, not allowing people to immigrate without a good command of the English language would be the first, because this is one of the largest factors causing people to "stick with their own" and not become a part of the greater Canadian fabric. I think the government services being offered in every language possible is not a good thing......I don't think "Muslim schools" and such should be allowed....and etc.

I would not use the United States as a comparison being that country is very..er...f%#^ed up in many regards.

Most are, compared to Canada and our success with multiculturalism. Britain is, France is.

Just because Canadians are too polite to be rude, doesn't mean they aren't growing concerned.
Multi-culturalism is just another marketing slogan - and like many, it is based on half-truths and outright lies.
Drive through Thorncliffe Park, North Brampton or Markham and see how successful multi-culturalism is today. A critical mass of cultures is developing in those areas. They don't need the rest of Canada and they don't want the rest of Canada. Many of the businesses don't even have English on their signs, period. What does that say?
I look at my grade school pictures (late '60s in Vancouver) and, to me, that is what mult-culturalism is suppsed to be, before Trudeau screwed it all up:
In a class of 30 or so, there were about 20 mostly anglos (who knows, because then nobody cared what or who you were), 2 or 3 kids of various Latin backgrounds, 5 or 6 Asians (mostly Chinese), 1 Greek kid and one black kid.
Juxtapose that with ANY photos of gradeschool kids in the GTA today. Is that multi-culturalism?