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Metrolinx: Sheppard East LRT (In Design)

I think that if the LRT gets to Colins Rd they should extend it to the Zoo because the zoo is owned by the city. A family taking the LRT to the zoo isn't paying the city a TTC day pass... they are paying a day pass plus $37 a head admission, plus fees on food sales, etc for an already existing zoo. From a TTC perspective the LRT may not make sense, but from a Zoo perspective it makes perfect sense.
 
EnviroTO said:
I think that if the LRT gets to Colins Rd they should extend it to the Zoo because the zoo is owned by the city. A family taking the LRT to the zoo isn't paying the city a TTC day pass... they are paying a day pass plus $37 a head admission, plus fees on food sales, etc for an already existing zoo. From a TTC perspective the LRT may not make sense, but from a Zoo perspective it makes perfect sense.
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The zoo is going to generate a lot of off-peak usage. While the ridership doesn't warrant LRT (very little of the SELRT does), there does need to be some kind of a connection to the zoo.

See, this is exactly why BRT is a better option for Sheppard East. Most people will be accessing the zoo via the subway, so during peak times at the zoo (say 9-12 to the zoo and 3-6 back from the zoo) they could run an express bus every 20 minutes or so, on top of the regular Sheppard East service. Because let's face it, spending 40 mins on the SELRT on top of the subway ride to get there is just asinine, and very few people in their right mind would do it. Not to mention that even the peak hour 2031 forecasts don't really justify LRT.

As it would stand with an SELRT connection to the zoo, a lot of people would spend almost as much time getting to and from the zoo by the TTC then they would actually spend AT the zoo! At least with dedicated express buses they could at least make the trip tolerable.
 
andrewpmk said:
The zoo and Rouge Park do not and never will generate much transit ridership. There is not much traffic in this area and most of the people going here will probably drive anyway.

Most of the ridership on the Sheppard LRT will be between Don Mills and Kennedy, where I expect the LRT will be packed in rush hour due to too little capacity. There have been a whole bunch of condo towers built along Sheppard (including at Allen, Bathurst, Yonge, Bayview, Bessarion, Leslie, Don Mills, Victoria Park and Kennedy) and around Scarborough Centre in the last ten years. There have been a few condo towers at Sheppard & Markham Rd as well. Also the traffic on the 401 tend to be worst west of the 404, bad in rush hour between 404 and somewhere between Kennedy and Morningside, and uncongested between Morningside and somewhere just west of Brock Road where the collector-express lanes end. On the other hand the east end of the LRT will be underused as there is not much there other than the zoo, Rouge Park and some big box stores and housing subdivisons.
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Yeah I'm sure the small number of residents in each condo tower will overwhelm the system. Not. People really need to stop overestimating how much actual transit demand a small condo building generates.

The zoo will not be bring much. The 194 failed pretty spectacularly and that was an express route from the super mega dense STC.
 
W. K. Lis said:
Most people drive to the Zoo because they don't like to take slow, uncomfortable buses. Should there be an extension to the Sheppard East LRT in the future, a lot more people would use it to get to the Zoo.

As for the Rouge Park, it still has to be developed. Which means more than likely they would concentrate non-wilderness venues near the LRT, away from the more wilderness acreage.
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Most people drive to the zoo because it's in a relatively remote part of Toronto, not because of the buses (which generally are neither slow nor uncomfortable heading to and from the zoo).

And since when are there plans to develop Rouge Park?
 
GenerationW said:
Most people drive to the zoo because it's in a relatively remote part of Toronto, not because of the buses (which generally are neither slow nor uncomfortable heading to and from the zoo).

And since when are there plans to develop Rouge Park?
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Im pro transit and take it when it makes sense but this is exactly why I would drive to the zoo. It is simply a much shorter trip especially on a weekend (401 traffic as bad as it is, is no where near as bad on the weekend vs a weekday) then transit would ever be.

BTW I was at starbucks on Eglinton yesterday and I watched a group of people wait at least 20 minutes for a bus. Sunday TTC service sucks. So if I was going to the ZOo on a Sunday and transit was the only option I might consider a long bike ride instead.
 
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W. K. Lis said:
Most people drive to the Zoo because they don't like to take slow, uncomfortable buses. Should there be an extension to the Sheppard East LRT in the future, a lot more people would use it to get to the Zoo.
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Can anyone describe what the currently planned bus service will be after SELRT is in place? Will the 85A service be maintained?

Extending the SELRT to Meadowvale seems like it would be a very cheap extension. Would it cost the TTC $15M to lay the tracks and install overhead wiring? The works department will be redoing sewer/resurfacing this stretch anyway. Property aquisitions should be minimal to non-existent.


It may be a touch more expensive to operate, adding a single LRT driver and vehicle to the expense but you can combine the 86A and 85A into a single route (upside down V) which should eliminate a pair of buses (schedule padding) and 2 drivers.

Perhaps operating savings is $150k/year (2 drivers, morning/afternoon and afternoon/evening)?


From a business standpoint, it's not worth doing.

Politically, it's a cheap win for the local councillors and the province. Durham Region could run a route or 2 through the Twyn Rivers Drive making SELRT an inter-regional line (meets Metrolinx mandate).
 
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rbt said:
Extending the SELRT to Meadowvale seems like it would be a very cheap extension. Would it cost the TTC $15M to lay the tracks and install overhead wiring? The works department will be redoing sewer/resurfacing this stretch anyway. Property aquisitions should be minimal to non-existent.
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Extending the line 1.6 km from Conlins to Meadowvale was in the original May 2009 funding announcement from Metrolinx and the Federal Government. However it was deferred to the unfunded Phase 2 in February 2010, at which point Metrolinx estimated it would cost $100 million to build.
 
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nfitz said:
Extending the line 1.6 km from Conlins to Morningside was in the original May 2009 funding announcement from Metrolinx and the Federal Government. However it was deferred to the unfunded Phase 2 in February 2010, at which point Metrolinx estimated it would cost $100 million to build.
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You mean extension to Meadowvale, not Morningside where the line is already going,

But I think a better destination for the SELRT is south to UTSC, simply because it is a relatively major destination and connects with GO and future DRT routes as well as a several TTC routes.
 
nfitz said:
Extending the line 1.6 km from Conlins to Morningside was in the original May 2009 funding announcement from Metrolinx and the Federal Government. However it was deferred to the unfunded Phase 2 in February 2010, at which point Metrolinx estimated it would cost $100 million to build.
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Sorry, meant the Collins to Meadowvale section couldn't be more than $15M. It's about the same distance as King to Mill on Cherry which is going to be a fraction of $15M (for the actual tram related components). The document you linked does not include an estimate for the Collins to Meadowvale section; just a statement that it should be Phase 2.


I remember reading the price of the Morningside to Meadowvale section before and wanting a detailed breakdown of it. It seemed to me at the time that estimate likely included a large chunk of the Collins Yard costs; possibly dozens of special track work segments for entering/exiting the yard tracks.
 
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EnviroTO said:
I think that if the LRT gets to Colins Rd they should extend it to the Zoo because the zoo is owned by the city. A family taking the LRT to the zoo isn't paying the city a TTC day pass... they are paying a day pass plus $37 a head admission, plus fees on food sales, etc for an already existing zoo. From a TTC perspective the LRT may not make sense, but from a Zoo perspective it makes perfect sense.
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How would the LRT get from Sheppard to the zoo - or how wold a passenger get up to the zoo. It is about 1.5km north of Sheppard. Either you need a major detour of the LRT or a shuttle bus. If a shuttle bus, why not between Conlins and the zoo. Or build a new entrance to the zoo from the south using gondola access.
 
BurlOak said:
How would the LRT get from Sheppard to the zoo - or how wold a passenger get up to the zoo. It is about 1.5km north of Sheppard. Either you need a major detour of the LRT or a shuttle bus. If a shuttle bus, why not between Conlins and the zoo. Or build a new entrance to the zoo from the south using gondola access.
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Unfortunately, the old internal zoo train was put out to pasture.
 
Found this in the material from the May 30 TTC meeting agenda. http://ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Commission_reports_and_information/Commission_meetings/2012/May_30/Supplementary_Reports/Presentation_LRT_Pro.pdf

The TTC, supported by the independent APTA Peer Review Panel, recommend:
• A realistic target in-service date of 2022-2023 for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT.
• Construction should be staged to address community impacts and operational
constraints.
• Sufficient time for commissioning the line should be provided in the schedule.
• Continue to complete the Crosstown station designs and proceed immediately to DB
to stagger the construction and major disruptions on Eglinton.
• Start construction of the Sheppard East LRT immediately.
• Start the Finch West LRT construction in 2015 consistent with Provincial cash flow
requirements.
• Start the Scarborough RT construction in 2015 immediately after the Pan/Parapan
American Games.
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The TTC really seems to be pushing for SELRT to happen as soon as possible. It's getting hard to not see the politics in play here.
 
datamouse said:
The TTC really seems to be pushing for SELRT to happen as soon as possible. It's getting hard to not see the politics in play here.
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SELRT is fully designed and could be tendered tomorrow (or 1 year ago). Delaying will increase the cost due to inflation of construction pricing.

I'm not certain how there is any politics in that statement.
 
I think delaying the SELRT makes sense since the last thing the province wants is to start on the project and having to cancel it again due to a pro Subway candidate winning the election in 2014. They will just start it if a pro LRT wins or drop it if Ford or an anti-LRT candidate wins.

They should have started Finch West instead
 
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