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TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

That's your own concoction. Try everyone not on Sheppard. How many people in Etobicoke, western North York, or southern Scarborough would be willing to give up that much bus service so that a mall gets a second rapid transit line that will be underutilized and lose tons of money? Downtowners wouldn't be the only ones questioning it.
Why will they have to give up bus service? We don't even know how much operating loss will be for an extended Sheppard. Numbers can be made to justify any plans. Did numbers from previous rapid transit plan (i.e. Network 2011) prove the need for rapid tansit on Sheppard? And it (STC) is not just "a mall", although they could make better pedestrian connections to some of those buildings to the east of McCowan, but that's another topic.

From what I've read, what the TTC needs most is operating cost subsidy. Even if the extension costs the city nothing to build , there will be people complaining about operating cost losses.

As for Finch, current peak scheduled service is ~2700pph and almost one quarter of that is only between Yonge and Seneca College... and Finch is the busier of the two streets. The regular bus and express are both more frequent compared to Sheppard. Why did we build a subway under Sheppard again?
Is Finch East really the busier of the two streets (not talking about the bus routes)? I can't quite remember the frequency of buses on Shppard prior to the subway opening.

As for why, assuming both are built to reasonable length, maybe it is more likely for someone on Finch to transfer to Sheppard, rather than the other way around.
 
IIRC Sheppard was the busiest bus route in the city at the time it was built, correct me if I'm wrong.
 
If the DRL is built to Sheppard, it may make more sense for it to continue east along Sheppard rather than ending at DonMills station. That would create enough of an incentive for people on Finch and Steeles to take Sheppard instead. Those going to midtown could just transfer to the crosstown line at Eglinton.

Yes, you'd have to transfer to continue westward to Yonge. However, the DRL would have such a big impact on commuting patterns that these trips might be in the minority. Or, the TTC coud interline, with half the Sheppard trains going to Yonge, half turning into the DRL.
 
No, actually. I'm not sure we can agree that Sheppard will eventually be extended to Downsview.

Was on the 401 today (on the GO bus), the traffic in the section between Yorkdale and Yonge is unbelievably bad and something needs to be done urgently. I know Sheppard West is not the busiest of bus routes (Finch West and Wilson are busier) but definitely there seems to be a lot of potential demand from Yonge to Downsview along Sheppard.

I notice that 401 traffic is noticably better east of 404 in Scarborough, though it can still be pretty bad in morning rush hour. It would seem that a western extension of Sheppard might be a higher priority than an eastern extension based on this.

The cancellation of Eglinton between Black Creek and the airport was an insanely stupid move given the level of congestion on the section of the 401 parallel to it. This section needs to be built urgently (with full grade separation) and with good bus connections to the various employment areas in Mississauga/Brampton near the airport.
 
No, actually. I'm not sure we can agree that Sheppard will eventually be extended to Downsview.

Between Eglinton and a high capacity LRT on Highway 7, both of which have more political capital behind them, the cross-town connection for Sheppard is very limited business case wise.

Heck, once Eglinton is built we're expected to have about 5,000pphpd on Bloor in excess capacity. Heavy East/West capacity will be a very low priority. This could change if GO starts running 10 minute frequencies all day as that massively increases North/South Capacity and Sheppard would be feeding GO rather than just the Yonge/Spadina.

Honestly, I don't see Sheppard to Downsview being the best expenditure of transit capital dollars for at least 50 years.

I think you're wrong. Part of the reason the Spadina extension was built was to reach York University. The 196 Rocket is heavily used and part of that line (The B branch) goes to Sheppard-Yonge. It's only Natural that the Sheppard Line goes to Downsview so that students from the East have a rapid access to York University

At the moment, there's nothing that can be done to make Sheppard Avenue West more efficient for transit even if an Express branch was created once the subway extension opens.

1-Sheppard Avenue West is a gridlock nightmare between Yonge street and Keele Street.The avenue only have 2 lane in each directions and no queue jump lane from Yonge to Bathurst Street and it's impossible to add them at those locations.

2-Sheppard Avenue West is growing very fast. Single houses are being destroyed to be replaced by mid-rise condos between Bathurst and Allen Road and that without the subway. West of Allen you will see in a few years the New Downsview Park residential neighborhood.

3-The Sheppard Line would have access to the Wilson Yard

4-People working in the University Avenue Area and west of that same Avenue coming from North East Scarborough would skip Sheppard Yonge Station to go straight to Dowsview (More likely to get a seat) and I t would be a fast ride (No need for any other station beside Bathurst as of now). This would help the Yonge line
 
Was on the 401 today (on the GO bus), the traffic in the section between Yorkdale and Yonge is unbelievably bad and something needs to be done urgently. I know Sheppard West is not the busiest of bus routes (Finch West and Wilson are busier) but definitely there seems to be a lot of potential demand from Yonge to Downsview along Sheppard.

I agree something is needed but Sheppard between Yonge and Downsview will not reduce traffic on the 401. There are near zero destinations in that area that people on the 401 are driving to.


A high capacity LRT on Highway 7, for local users, coupled with the highspeed GO 407 transitway (also potentially very high capacity) for long distance riders could divert trips from the 401 corridor.


Sheppard subway diversion from 401 for the Downsview to Yonge portion would be fewer than 1000 cars per day out of half a million. MTO stats show very few 401 trips less 4km.

If the goal is to entice people off the 401 then Sheppard isn't going to do it. 401 drivers are not starting on the 401 and ending on the 401; they start from home and end up at work. You need to link home to work and nothing about the Yonge to Downsview stretch will do that except a handful (under 1000) York U students who live in the North York condos.


I think you're wrong. Part of the reason the Spadina extension was built was to reach York University. The 196 Rocket is heavily used and part of that line (The B branch) goes to Sheppard-Yonge.

You can find several dozen bus routes in the GTA with higher ridership than the 196B between Sheppard-Yonge. 196B in that area gets about 1000 riders during the busy periods. We will boost that by 300% (inline with Sheppard East) and assume 50% of those are trips currently using the 401 (very generous).

So, you've optimistically diverted half a lane of traffic and spent about $250 per trip over a 30 year period to do it without considering operating expenses which we know from Sheppard East will add another $5 to $10.

($2B in capital; 1000 trips * 52 weeks * 5 days * 30 years) = $256


So, Eglinton (SCC to Pearson) which can stand on its own, Highway 7 LRT which has political backing, and Highway 407 transitway which can actually divert trips from 401 are all higher in priority than Sheppard for provincial transit dollars.


Frankly, I think 10 minute all day frequencies on Lake Shore GO would have more impact on 401 usage than Sheppard West to Downsview; but I'm not aware of any studies on this.
 
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I agree something is needed but Sheppard between Yonge and Downsview will not reduce traffic on the 401. There are near zero destinations in that area that people on the 401 are driving to.

Frankly, I think 10 minute all day frequencies on Lake Shore GO would have more impact on 401 usage than Sheppard West to Downsview; but I'm not aware of any studies on this.

how would a all day lakeshore go line help the 401. wouldnt it be more likely to help QEW
 
Sheppard Avenue West is a gridlock nightmare between Yonge street and Keele Street.

So is every arterial in this city during rush hours: Bayview, Finch, Lawrence, Don Mills, etc etc etc. Sheppard is no exception.

2-Sheppard Avenue West is growing very fast. Single houses are being destroyed to be replaced by mid-rise condos between Bathurst and Allen Road and that without the subway.

Not that fast. There are still plenty of bungalows with wide lots. Regardless, density along the roadway is simply a facade of high density.

4-People working in the University Avenue Area and west of that same Avenue coming from North East Scarborough would skip Sheppard Yonge Station to go straight to Dowsview...This would help the Yonge line

Only in your specific example (a destination west of University, near Bloor). They are still travelling to Dufferin/Sheppard, only to double-back again on their way downtown. That somewhat defeats the purpose.

The pro-Sheppard crowd is definitely grasping at straws here. I'm sure Save Our Sheppard is glad they have Ford on their side. But that's about the only person in power they have.
 
im not even pro sheppard. im pro sbeppard being lrt. that being said i think something should be done instead of just keeping a stubway in place. i have no problem if we build lrt and convert the subway or we extend the subway to downsview and vic park. but something should be done.

btw im not screwing people on sheppard when i say they should be getting lrt. i live on eglinton and if i could have it done my way id pick lrt here too. what im most concerned about is creating a NETWORK! and to me that network should be as big as possible. if lrt is what can do that then fine. its not perfect but its better then busses and could be done better then streetcar rows. additional inside toronto GO stations could do the rest.
 
how would a all day lakeshore go line help the 401. wouldnt it be more likely to help QEW

Great question. Drivers going from Oshawa to Oakville tend to take the 401 until the 403. They do not tend to take the Don Valley past the core of the city and out the QEW. Likewise, if you are going from Whitby to Port Credit, you probably take the 401 until 427 to avoid Don Valley and the Toronto core.

I'm not saying it is a big number of trips diverted but I wouldn't be surprised if it was just as big as Sheppard from Yonge to Downsview.

Obviously electrified and increased capacity on Lake Shore has other benefits as you have mentioned.

Anyway, that's my position. Sheppard west subway extension comes after Highway 407 transitway, Highway 7 LRT, Eglinton LRT to Pearson, and Lake Shore East/West electrification for ways I would spend ~$2B to divert trips from highway 401.
 
407 transitway would undoubtedly be by far the most useful 401 reliever for long distance trips. Unfortunately the existing 407 express buses are all very poorly designed for non-York students; all the buses terminate at York U, and people coming from the west must transfer to GO 51/52/54 to go further east toward Richmond Hill Centre, and to TTC 60C/196B to get to North York Centre. The express buses from NYCC to SQ1/Oakville/Milton via the 401 are very limited in number and very slow due to heavy 401 congestion. A Yonge extension to Highway 7 and extending all the 407 West buses to Richmond Hill would make this route far more useful.

For shorter trips Eglinton line to the airport needs to be made a priority. But Sheppard from Downsview to Victoria Park would also be very useful, connecting the Consumers Rd business park to the Spadina subway and thus York U and Vaughan. While you may be right that traffic on the 401 entering at Allen and exiting at Yonge is insignificant, there must be lots of traffic from NW Toronto and Vaughan going to the Consumers Road area. Then eventually it could be extended west to Jane (lots of low income housing here) and east to Scarborough Centre.
 
407 transitway would undoubtedly be by far the most useful 401 reliever for long distance trips. Unfortunately the existing 407 express buses are all very poorly designed for non-York students; all the buses terminate at York U, and people coming from the west must transfer to GO 51/52/54 to go further east toward Richmond Hill Centre, and to TTC 60C/196B to get to North York Centre. The express buses from NYCC to SQ1/Oakville/Milton via the 401 are very limited in number and very slow due to heavy 401 congestion. A Yonge extension to Highway 7 and extending all the 407 West buses to Richmond Hill would make this route far more useful.

I assume this will change after the Spadina line extension is complete and York-bound passengers are dropped off to at the 407 station to transfer to the subway.
 
Then eventually it could be extended west to Jane (lots of low income housing here) and east to Scarborough Centre.

The spadina extension would technically push a sheppard subway almost close to Keele...the road ends at Weston. No point in sending any more subway down there...if you've seen Sheppard past Keele, you know there will never be subway type ridership there.

In the long term it would be best if the sheppard line as it approached downsview, curves into a south-west direction with a platform adjacent to the current station but either below or above it because the tracks cannot intersect each other...

The Angle would be: | /

Then the line would emerge outside and cut right through the Wilson yard on the western boundary (The way the Spadina cuts through the eastern boundary) and dip underground and curve once again into an east-west subway line under Wilson Ave.

Wilson Ave has far greater potential to be gentrified and has the ridership to support a subway line. This line could go up to Jane and Wilson.

In the extreme Long-term The line could then continue down Wilson and then down Albion and diagonally slice through Etobicoke intersecting with every major artery and diverting ridership from all routes.

It is very realistic that riders from Weston Rd, Islington, Kipling, and Martin Grove would switch to a diagonal subway to make their way downtown...via Jane.

Also in the Extreme Long-Term A jane subway from Bloor or Eglinton to Wilson would be a great connector and most probably the western leg of the DRL.

Wouldn't it be cool if you could take a subway from Albion Mall to Scarborough Town Centre? I know its nothing more than a dream but just sayin' ;)
 
The spadina extension would technically push a sheppard subway almost close to Keele...the road ends at Weston. No point in sending any more subway down there...if you've seen Sheppard past Keele, you know there will never be subway type ridership there.

In the long term it would be best if the sheppard line as it approached downsview, curves into a south-west direction with a platform adjacent to the current station but either below or above it because the tracks cannot intersect each other...

The Angle would be: | /

Then the line would emerge outside and cut right through the Wilson yard on the western boundary (The way the Spadina cuts through the eastern boundary) and dip underground and curve once again into an east-west subway line under Wilson Ave.

Wilson Ave has far greater potential to be gentrified and has the ridership to support a subway line. This line could go up to Jane and Wilson.

In the extreme Long-term The line could then continue down Wilson and then down Albion and diagonally slice through Etobicoke intersecting with every major artery and diverting ridership from all routes.

It is very realistic that riders from Weston Rd, Islington, Kipling, and Martin Grove would switch to a diagonal subway to make their way downtown...via Jane.

Also in the Extreme Long-Term A jane subway from Bloor or Eglinton to Wilson would be a great connector and most probably the western leg of the DRL.

Wouldn't it be cool if you could take a subway from Albion Mall to Scarborough Town Centre? I know its nothing more than a dream but just sayin' ;)

If you want to live in pure fantasy i would suggest when sheppard gets to downsview it interlines with the vaughn line. It would go on to stop at downsview park and then keele and finch. At keele and finch it would turn west on finch and continue to humber college and the airport. Wouldnt it be cool if you could take a subway from Humber college to Scarborough Town Centre? I know its nothing more then a dream but just saying;)
 

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