September 11th: Real or Fraud?

Kamuix said:

People are waking up.

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People are awake, that's not the issue. It's when people purport to know something, but offer nothing in terms of evidence. In the case of your 9/11 conspiracy beliefs, that would be you.

People here who still think 9/11 was not an inside job argue like politicians with an agenda. they generalize, manipulate, contradict, attack while avoiding simple questions asked.. It's amazing because whenever I go into detail about something they immediately shoot me down with a generalized point while avoiding what I was talking about. They will say that what I say isn't logical.. yet they can't go into detail about why it isn't logical even after I ask many times. Instead they keep avoiding and attacking with generalized arguments. And watch.. they'll do the same to me here.

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Again, you're wrong. People are skeptical about what you assert to be true because you can't provide a shred of evidence to back up your claims. It's really quite simple, but you don't get it. If anything, going by your baseless accusations, you are the one with an agenda. And just so you are clear, demanding your evidence isn't generalizing; it is a very specific request for you to show the proof that is necessary to support your claims. You fail to do this over and over.

I just noticed this was said... wow. Remember awhile ago in this thread when you said something similar and told me to define what the subconscious mind is so I did? Remember the many times I explained what open-mindedness and also explained in great detail how it works including the barriers your mind can create that prevent you from going somewhere your mind doesn't want to go? you know nothing about the mind and I can tell by the way you argue and the way you talk here. You could be the most narrow-minded person and It doesn't matter how many years you've spent in school, how knowledgeable you are or how high your IQ is. I've given you many chances to prove me wrong and you just can't. And that includes just being able to discuss something in detail Instead of generalizing and dodging things etc.

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As noted, you have explained nothing and have offered no evidence to examine or refute. Also as previously noted, if you actually bothered to show evidence to back up your assertions (which you have failed to do yet again), people might be more receptive to what you are saying. But as you have no evidence whatsoever to back up any of your claims regarding some massive government conspiracy, one can only conclude that you have an inescapably closed mind because you refuse to acknowledge that obvious fact. You are operating entirely on the basis of your own belief that has no substantiation and are too afraid to admit it, so spare me the drivel on how you are some sort of an expert on open-mindedness. Quit obfuscating and show your evidence already. Trust me, you don't come off as an expert on the mind either. How about you define "mind" for me mr. expert. For once, try show me what you know rather than trying to hide from the fact that you don't know anything.

Hey I'll discuss anything in depth, but fuck the generalizations and all that Bullshit.

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Actually, you discuss nothing in depth. You appear to have a chip on your shoulder, are defensive, are a poor writer and have a temper when challenged to prove any of your claims. If you don't like generalizations Kamuix, start dealing in specifics - like in the specific verifiable evidence that supports your claims of a government conspiracy regarding the events of 9/11. No generalizations necessary, just the in-depth detailed specifics. Go ahead, start producing it already.

Paranoia is the new religion. You don't need evidence, you only need faith.

I have followed this pathetically one-sided 'debate', obviously 9/11 wasn't a broad conspiracy. However, its impossible to prove a negative, which allows conspiracy hacks to throw out as yet unanswered questions as though that amounted to proof. My guess is conspiracy notions appeal to certain minds. Perhaps darker forces are conspiring to frustrate their dreams and ambitions and they look for confirmation in the world?

There is an amusing documentary where one of the US's top demolition experts talks about prepping buildings for demolition which involves cutting through I-beams wrapping massive explosives around all sorts of pillars, hanging wire etc. A hugely obvious process. So the documentarian asks 'but what if the explosives were placed in advance during the building's construction?' The demolition guy is magnificent as he deadpanes 'yes, I suppose that could work'.

I think the real suspicion lies in the fact they both came down so quickly, within an hour of each other. If they'd burned for days or weeks then came down it would be a bit more realistic. Shock and awe comes to mind here, as well as the ongoing war against Islam, which I think was the real reason for "staging" the event.

It's a pity someone in some country with a similar structure--even a 40s skyscraper--and tons of disposable cash, remotely fly a large plane into the (abandoned, condemned, empty?) building just to see what happens. (Film the entire thing from all angles, inside and out.)

@ Kamuix & co...

Okay so you think that the students who did university studies and constructed models on what most likely happened-- were all biased and were forced to create the models in such a way that they lie?

And you think that it was an inside job yet not ONE person has peeped about the fact that it was an inside plot or even made a cry for help?

There. You wanted real questions, there are some real questions for you.

Good luck Spire . We've mentioned the lack of peepage a number of times but Kamuix doesn't seem to think that's an issue.

This is tough then... because I don't even know what other questions to ask him for purposes of clarification of his theory. There's just so little evidence for his "inside job" nonsense that I don't even know where to begin with him.

In some cases, dogmatic belief becomes more dogmatic when challenged.

In other cases, some people confuse their own lack of understanding for evidence of a conspiracy.

It is ridiculous to think it was a conspiracy, a colaboration between U.S.A government and El Kaide. Osama Bin Laden an American agent.... His terror activities are well documented before Sep. 11. He executed horrific terror acts beside some failed ones. To sacrifice 3000 thousands lives of your own citizens and put your country and the world in chaos for the general good of...oil? and making few individuals richer? Such a huge and complicated terror act without an evidance of inside job?

gristle said:

People are awake, that's not the issue. It's when people purport to know something, but offer nothing in terms of evidence. In the case of your 9/11 conspiracy beliefs, that would be you.

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You're not one to lecture me on what the issue is because you don't decide what the issue is in this thread and you constantly hide behind stupid generalizations because you are incapable of discussing the topic and you know it. Your arguments do not discuss the topic, they just work as an excuse not to discuss it.

You see it's because of people like you that the issue has become complicated, the reason it's not about "THE EVIDENCE" anymore Is because you are too narrow minded and pretty much brainwashed by the establishment to discuss the evidence in an open minded way.. and you know it.

gristle said:

People here who still think 9/11 was not an inside job argue like politicians with an agenda. they generalize, manipulate, contradict, attack while avoiding simple questions asked.. It's amazing because whenever I go into detail about something they immediately shoot me down with a generalized point while avoiding what I was talking about. They will say that what I say isn't logical.. yet they can't go into detail about why it isn't logical even after I ask many times. Instead they keep avoiding and attacking with generalized arguments. And watch.. they'll do the same to me here.

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Again, you're wrong. People are skeptical about what you assert to be true because you can't provide a shred of evidence to back up your claims. It's really quite simple, but you don't get it. If anything, going by your baseless accusations, you are the one with an agenda. And just so you are clear, demanding your evidence isn't generalizing; it is a very specific request for you to show the proof that is necessary to support your claims. You fail to do this over and over.

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All you did was say I was wrong and then you failed to explain how I was wrong. You generalized once again.. ^^ Who predicted that? my point I was making was how in order to make yourself appear as if you were right, you had to manipulate the argument in order to do it, and you just did it again... It's sad to watch because these are the people who get taken advantage of through propaganda and mainstream media etc etc...

gristle said:

As noted, you have explained nothing and have offered no evidence to examine or refute. Also as previously noted, if you actually bothered to show evidence to back up your assertions (which you have failed to do yet again), people might be more receptive to what you are saying. But as you have no evidence whatsoever to back up any of your claims regarding some massive government conspiracy, one can only conclude that you have an inescapably closed mind because you refuse to acknowledge that obvious fact. You are operating entirely on the basis of your own belief that has no substantiation and are too afraid to admit it, so spare me the drivel on how you are some sort of an expert on open-mindedness. Quit obfuscating and show your evidence already. Trust me, you don't come off as an expert on the mind either. How about you define "mind" for me mr. expert. For once, try show me what you know rather than trying to hide from the fact that you don't know anything.

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Although you quoted me, you didn't actually discuss anything I discussed. All you did was attack me.. Again.. If I'm so crazy, why can't you explain to me why I really am? I explained in detail(not a generalization) of how you keep avoiding me and generalizing, manipulating, contradict, attack while avoiding simple questions asked etc.. And you won't even address that. You just go around it and attack me in an attempt to make me look crazy.. That's my point, you're not trying to discuss anything, you're trying to make me look stupid, that's your agenda.. It's pretty obvious to anyone here who actually takes the time and look at what I'm saying to see what you're doing.

gristle said:

Actually, you discuss nothing in depth.

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I have to stop you here, are you serious? This just happened not long ago where you completely accused me of doing something that you were doing. I discuss nothing in depth? Are you kidding me? Do you want me to re-quote what I caught you doing like 3 pages back? Do we really have to go through this again?

gristle said:

You appear to have a chip on your shoulder, are defensive, are a poor writer and have a temper when challenged to prove any of your claims. If you don't like generalizations Kamuix, start dealing in specifics - like in the specific verifiable evidence that supports your claims of a government conspiracy regarding the events of 9/11. No generalizations necessary, just the in-depth detailed specifics. Go ahead, start producing it already.

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And you did the same thing again.. Accused me of doing something that you're the only one doing. But not only that.. Grissie's going to attack me on a personal level to make me look even worse. Yes i may not have the best spelling and grammar but at-least I'm willing to admit to a flaw(and that's not even a very big one). Judging by the things you say here it's hard to imagine you being the kind of person who might admit to their flaws based on how narrow minded you seem to be.. and I personally think there's a good chance that you're beginning to see that.

Common guys.. do you really have to be that narrow minded? Oh and i can't help but notice that Grissie kind of attacked me again by saying I seem angry and have a temper. I actually consider myself to be pretty patient with you because trust me it wouldn't be easier for anyone else...

BobBob said:

Paranoia is the new religion. You don't need evidence, you only need faith.

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It's ironic because that's exactly how religion is for the most part.. Paranoia was never based on faith anyways, not that common sense is paranoia.

SP!RE said:

@ Kamuix & co...

Okay so you think that the students who did university studies and constructed models on what most likely happened-- were all biased and were forced to create the models in such a way that they lie?

And you think that it was an inside job yet not ONE person has peeped about the fact that it was an inside plot or even made a cry for help?

There. You wanted real questions, there are some real questions for you.

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There have been literally hundreds of people who have come out over things they've witnessed on 9/11, and many of them have been threatened and many others are afraid to come out. All I'm asking is that you do your own research because none of you have and you know it.

In some cases, dogmatic belief becomes more dogmatic when challenged.

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And again.. he contradicts himself 100%





I love how you guys talk as if I'm the only one on this planet who thinks 9/11 was an inside job. It just further proves the fact that all you care about is making me look bad. But what you forget is is that I have the truth on my side, something that will always prevail.

It's funny because as time goes on it becomes more and more funny the way you guys deny things like this. Did if ever occur to you take a look at history and see that governments have always staged events in order to convince their people to give up their rights? It's not that I'm trying to convince you that 9/11 was an inside job based on these smaller facts, it's that no matter what's revealed to you, you won't even open your mind to the possibility. It's becoming more of a joke than anything to watch the way you guys try and make me look crazy. What about over 1,000 architects and engineers? are they all crazy too? The question here is how far can you let your mind stay in denial. People are waking up.

Kamuix said:

You're not one to lecture me on what the issue is because you don't decide what the issue is in this thread and you constantly hide behind stupid generalizations because you are incapable of discussing the topic and you know it. Your arguments do not discuss the topic, they just work as an excuse not to discuss it.

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The thread is about 9/11, and you've raised your beliefs that there is some sort of government conspiracy involved. I've asked you to provide verifiable evidence to support your claim. You've provided none because you are incapable of doing so. I'm not "discussing;" I am challenging you to support your assertions. Once you provide your verifiable evidence that supports your claims, a discussion can take place.

And evidence isn't some "truther" drivel.

You see it's because of people like you that the issue has become complicated, the reason it's not about "THE EVIDENCE" anymore Is because you are too narrow minded and pretty much brainwashed by the establishment to discuss the evidence in an open minded way.. and you know it.

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It's all about the evidence Kamuix, and you have provided none to support your claim. While you whine about being attacked, you seem to be oblivious to your own personal attacks. The only one who finds the request for verifiable evidence as being "complicated" is you.

All you did was say I was wrong and then you failed to explain how I was wrong.

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In fact, I did. You offered no evidence whatsoever to support your broadly-stated paranoia. If you would bother to specific, I would then tell you how you are wrong specifically.

...you had to manipulate the argument in order to do it, and you just did it again...

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Let's be clear, you are not making an argument. You are making a set of unsupported claims, and failing to back up those claims with verifiable evidence when challenged to do so.

Although you quoted me, you didn't actually discuss anything I discussed. All you did was attack me..

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Incorrect. You've offered nothing to discuss but your baseless and unsupported claims regarding a conspiracy. I've merely pointed this out to you yet again.

It's sad to watch because these are the people who get taken advantage of through propaganda and mainstream media etc etc...

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Really! You know this for sure about everyone? Can you prove that?

I explained in detail(not a generalization) of how you keep avoiding me and generalizing, manipulating, contradict, attack while avoiding simple questions asked etc.. And you won't even address that.

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Actually no. All you've said was exactly what you stated above. Of course, that line is all just a shallow attempted cover for the fact that you have zero verifiable evidence to back up your claims of a government conspiracy regarding 9/11.

That's my point, you're not trying to discuss anything, you're trying to make me look stupid, that's your agenda..

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As noted over and over, you've provided nothing to discuss because you have provided nothing in the way of verifiable evidence to support your assertions. If you are worried about looking stupid (something you repeat over and over because you are terribly concerned about how you appear here), maybe it's time to either start providing the evidence, or finally show some backbone and admit that you have none. All you have is your own completely unsubstantiated opinion. Why not just admit it?

It's pretty obvious to anyone here who actually takes the time and look at what I'm saying to see what you're doing.

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Yeah, I'm looking at what you are saying. And clearly, that bothers you.

But not only that.. Grissie's going to attack me on a personal level to make me look even worse. Yes i may not have the best spelling and grammar but at-least I'm willing to admit to a flaw(and that's not even a very big one). Judging by the things you say here it's hard to imagine you being the kind of person who might admit to their flaws based on how narrow minded you seem to be.. and I personally think there's a good chance that you're beginning to see that.

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Poor boy. All the hurt feelings. Clearly you can't take what you give out. You might also want to recant your self-assumed expertise regarding the mind and the subconscious while admitting your other numerous flaws. But of course, that would take you away from the real challenge at hand for you: providing verifiable evidence to support your conspiracy claims.

Common guys.. do you really have to be that narrow minded? Oh and i can't help but notice that Grissie kind of attacked me again by saying I seem angry and have a temper. I actually consider myself to be pretty patient with you because trust me it wouldn't be easier for anyone else...

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Well Kammy, you just suggested that everyone who questions you is narrow-minded. Do you get it Kammy? Then you go on to allude that you are being kind to us with all your patience.

Rather than engaging in some pretty poor self-promotion, try to get to the task of providing some verifiable evidence and the actual structure of the conspiracy that you claim exists. Skip the truther posters.

It's becoming more of a joke than anything to watch the way you guys try and make me look crazy.

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Regarding the crazy part, you don't need help. the evidence being:

But what you forget is is that I have the truth on my side, something that will always prevail.

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Skip the plastic self-glorification. Show your evidence. If you claim "truth" without proof that can be examined, verified or refuted, you are either confusing your opinion for fact (which it isn't) or you are delusional.

Start showing evidence and provide a description and timeline of the conspiracy you claims exists. That, or admit that all you own is your singular little opinion with nothing to support it.

Again the same old replies... I like how you quote things I say but don't actually address but instead just.. well the same thing you always do. Grissie you keep your faith in big government and see how it works out for you.

Well Kammy, you just suggested that everyone who questions you is narrow-minded. Do you get it Kammy? Then you go on to allude that you are being kind to us with all your patience.

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Well.. Not if you question me, but you never ask good questions, you never discuss anything in depth. The way you pathologically and manipulate arguments to make you appear as if you know what you're talking about then kind of yeah.

EDIT: Your arguments depend on people do be as narrow in the mind as your arguments are. I've shown quite a bit of good evidence but again why is it that you have created this rule that I must show Grissie approved evidence(even though it's a discussion forum) and yet you don't have to provide a thing to prove that I'm delirious? Go ahead, I Challenge you.

Also.. Tell me you don't automatically buy into anything that's 'Official' like the 9/11 commission report? And in your mind I must show government official proof to prove that it's wrong... See what I mean? If we're being lead into deception then why would our controllers allow new evidence that goes against their version of the story to be released? This is where open-mindedness and depth comes into play. It this really that hard to understand? No.. But when you've been lead into deception you kind of need to be open-minded in order to get out of that trance. You don't have to know much about psychology to know what I'm talking about.

I'm starting to suspect that Kamuix is a mossad agent himself!

Kamuix said:

Grissie you keep your faith in big government...

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Cite where I've indicated this. Show proof.

Well.. Not if you question me, but you never ask good questions, you never discuss anything in depth.

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The question I've asked you - and it's a good one - is for you to provide verifiable evidence to back up your assertions concerning a government conspiracy regarding the events of 9/11.

You have repeatedly failed to provide such evidence as you have none, and are clearly incapable of admitting it here.

The way you pathologically and manipulate arguments to make you appear as if you know what you're talking about then kind of yeah.

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Kammy, you don't pick up on things too quickly, so read this slowly: I'm asking you for evidence. That's what I've been doing here. You're the one who has failed to provide any content.

Get it?

A bunch of inane questions doesn't constitute evidence.

EDIT: Your arguments depend on people do be as narrow in the mind as your arguments are. I've shown quite a bit of good evidence but again why is it that you have created this rule that I must show Grissie approved evidence(even though it's a discussion forum) and yet you don't have to provide a thing to prove that I'm delirious? Go ahead, I Challenge you.

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Poor boy, now you think it's all about you. Kammyboy, you haven't shown any evidence. Period. You don't know what verifiable evidence is. You've never even provided any clear outline regarding the conspiracy that you claim exists. You are incapable of distinguishing between what you feel and the concept of demonstrable evidence that corroborates your claims. More simply put - just for you - you have either demonstrated a clear incapacity to understand what evidence is, or you have simply spent an enormous amount of effort trying to evade the fact that you have none.

Also.. Tell me you don't automatically buy into anything that's 'Official' like the 9/11 commission report?

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Have you read it in its entirety to know what is in that report? I highly doubt that.

And in your mind I must show government official proof to prove that it's wrong... See what I mean?

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Either you factually refute the 9/11 Commission Report with verifiable evidence that undermines the conclusions of that report, or you provide a factual summary of the events that you assert took place, including timelines, key persons, organizations and the like, along the verifiable evidence that supports your account. You have done neither. On the basis of your claims here, you should be doing both.

Get to it Kammyboy, you've been challenged. Can you get it up for the task?

If we're being lead into deception then why would our controllers allow new evidence that goes against their version of the story to be released? This is where open-mindedness and depth comes into play. It this really that hard to understand? No.. But when you've been lead into deception you kind of need to be open-minded in order to get out of that trance. You don't have to know much about psychology to know what I'm talking about.

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If there is any deception, it's you deceiving yourself. You claim that there is contrary evidence that is unreleased. If it's unreleased, then how do you know of it? Can you explain that? What is obvious in this instance is that you are imagining the existence of some contrary evidence - which means that it is imaginary and not actual evidence.

As you have been challenged numerous times on this thread, produce the evidence to support your claims or admit that you have none.

gristle said:

Grissie you keep your faith in big government...
Cite where I've indicated this. Show proof.

Well.. Not if you question me, but you never ask good questions, you never discuss anything in depth.
The question I've asked you - and it's a good one - is for you to provide verifiable evidence to back up your assertions concerning a government conspiracy regarding the events of 9/11.

You have repeatedly failed to provide such evidence as you have none, and are clearly incapable of admitting it here.

The way you pathologically and manipulate arguments to make you appear as if you know what you're talking about then kind of yeah.
Kammy, you don't pick up on things too quickly, so read this slowly: I'm asking you for evidence. That's what I've been doing here. You're the one who has failed to provide any content.

Get it?

A bunch of inane questions doesn't constitute evidence.

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And in your mind I must show government official proof to prove that it's wrong... See what I mean? If we're being lead into deception then why would our controllers allow new evidence that goes against their version of the story to be released? This is where open-mindedness and depth comes into play. It this really that hard to understand? No.. But when you've been lead into deception you kind of need to be open-minded in order to get out of that trance. You don't have to know much about psychology to know what I'm talking about.

Poor boy, now you think it's all about you. Kammyboy, you haven't shown any evidence. Period. You don't know what verifiable evidence is. You've never even provided any clear outline regarding the conspiracy that you claim exists. You are incapable of distinguishing between what you feel and the concept of demonstrable evidence that corroborates your claims. More simply put - just for you - you have either demonstrated a clear incapacity to understand what evidence is, or you have simply spent an enormous amount of effort trying to evade the fact that you have none.

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I said said or implied that it was all about me. You're obviously using the 'No evidence' move to justify not having to discuss anything in depth, let alone anything at all, and you know it.

gristle said:

Have you read it in its entirety to know what is in that report? I highly doubt that.

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You just implied here that you believe anything that's official because I asked you and you didn't answer but only that you instead attacked me for having not read it which implies that you have faith in it.

gristle said:

Either you factually refute the 9/11 Commission Report with verifiable evidence that undermines the conclusions of that report, or you provide a factual summary of the events that you assert took place, including timelines, key persons, organizations and the like, along the verifiable evidence that supports your account. You have done neither. On the basis of your claims here, you should be doing both.

Get to it Kammyboy, you've been challenged. Can you get it up for the task?

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Your arguments depend on people do be as narrow in the mind as your arguments are. I've shown quite a bit of good evidence but again why is it that you have created this rule that I must show Grissie approved evidence(even though it's a discussion forum) and yet you don't have to provide a thing to prove that I'm delirious? Go ahead, I Challenge you.

gristle said:

If there is any deception, it's you deceiving yourself. You claim that there is contrary evidence that is unreleased. If it's unreleased, then how do you know of it? Can you explain that? What is obvious in this instance is that you are imagining the existence of some contrary evidence - which means that it is imaginary and not actual evidence.

As you have been challenged numerous times on this thread, produce the evidence to support your claims or admit that you have none.

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You have no idea how government works and how politicians can be bought off by people. Tons of research on the Internet has shown me that. You haven't done any research on it and you have been brainwashed and conditioned to believe whatever the official story may be. Did you know that the majority of the deceived population are deceived because they only know the governments side of the story?(through mainstream media, propaganda, etc... It's everywhere unless you go to alternative sources on your own but you wouldn't have a clue what that means).

See.. I know it sounds kind of weird to people who don't know much or anything about psychology but I can generally tell the way your mind works when it comes to topics like this and it's not hard to understand the logic and I've explained it so many times and just by the way you post It's so obviously for anyone who's capable of thinking in depth(which everyone is). It's pretty much stuck in a loop, for example you criticize me for 'thinking he knows things about the mind' but yet every time I bring it up or explain a logic you just plain won't discuss it, why is that? not to mention you cannot answer simple questions, like that one. I mean yea you'll put the question in a little quote as to reply to it, but you won't actually reply to it you'll just use the 'evidence' protection mechanism.

Here's another important point that I don't think I've mentioned yet. If I was really crazy and delirious like you constantly try and make me look then you could easily explain in simple detail why by pointing out the flaws in my logic. However.. Not you or anyone else on the forum has been able to do that and in order to do it you have to go into depth so no you can't generalize with the popular 'you're going off topic' defense mechanism because it's dodging which clearly shows you don't want to honestly and efficiently prove me wrong but instead is going to cheap to make it look as if you have.

It's funny though because I can see that you're really running out of good ways to try and make me look foolish because you keep using the 'no evidence' mechanism and that seems to be all that you'll use. I mean I get that you're narrow minded and along with a few others that have posted here but.. I'll bet the majority of people who read this other then you understand what I'm talking about.

But other then that in depth stuff there's still the fact that you have implied to me many times that you don't question what's 'official'. Oh and to reply to your question you asked about what other evidence hasn't been released, there's tons!! You just don't consider it evidence because it's not 'Official' and the establishment won't let it through because it's against their agenda and there has been many attempts to get evidence published in congress.

You can say things like " I'm asking you for evidence." or "along the verifiable evidence that supports your account" or "you have either demonstrated a clear incapacity to understand what evidence is" However you want to re-word it it's the same but I've given you many responses to that including:

If we're being lead into deception then why would our controllers allow new evidence that goes against their version of the story to be released? This is where open-mindedness and depth comes into play. It this really that hard to understand? No.. But when you've been lead into deception you kind of need to be open-minded in order to get out of that trance. You don't have to know much about psychology to know what I'm talking about.

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But that won't register in your mind and you refuse to research it because you're sub-conscious mind WON'T ALLOW IT. In other words the establishment has you successfully deceived, brainwashed, conditioned... It really is that simple.