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Shabby Toronto

Mystic Point has a point in that Toronto is terribly shabby. I'm not going too far in the comparisons but I would take most with a grain of salt because my anecdotal experiences do not corelate with even the sampling expressed in this thread.

I think this time of year is the time when Toronto is at it's worst but that is no excuse because this time of year comes every year so we should design for it. On the other hand I really don't know if people realize how fast the city is changing and how much less shabby it is than even 5 years ago, regardless of the limitless path we still have to tread. Speaking with some older folks they still see cleanliness as equaling unshabby. But the problem is even a spotless area that is shabby is just sterile and shabby. The dynamic change we are seeing is occuring on every level from residential interiors and exteriors to commercial streetscapes and public spaces. Basically what I'm saying is that the city is damn shabby by international standards but it is actually changing quickly and that if you think the place is shabby now you would be mortified by it's state 10 years ago.
 
Shabby by international standards?! What B.S. is that? Shabby compared to Paris or London? Shabby compared to the least shabby cities on earth?

And what parts of New York are being compared to what parts of Toronto? Manhatten is nice in most spots (just don't peak behind the Lincoln Center), but that's because it has the luxury of forcing everything across the river. You want shabby? Cross a bridge.
 
TKTKTK said:
Shabby by international standards?! What B.S. is that? Shabby compared to Paris or London? Shabby compared to the least shabby cities on earth?

And what parts of New York are being compared to what parts of Toronto? Manhatten is nice in most spots (just don't peak behind the Lincoln Center), but that's because it has the luxury of forcing everything across the river. You want shabby? Cross a bridge.
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Come on, Mystic has a point. Lets not beat him/her up too much! I agree that a city can go too far, but if I hear one more 'gauche' defense of Toronto shabby chic/messy urbanism I'll puke. Then again, if I puke in the street nobody would notice or care, I mean that would be big-city 'grit', wouldn't it?:rolleyes:
 
Tewder said:
Come on, Mystic has a point. Lets not beat him/her up too much! I agree that a city can go too far, but if I hear one more 'gauche' defense of Toronto shabby chic/messy urbanism I'll puke. Then again, if I puke in the street nobody would notice or care, I mean that would be big-city 'grit', wouldn't it?:rolleyes:
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What 'gauche' defense? We're just pointing out that every city has areas of shabbiness and messy urbanism - unless it's Dubai, I guess. In typical Toronto fashion we try to compare our worst to everyone else's best - then get depressed when we don't measure up. Big surprise!
 
Mystery White Boy said:
Have you been to New York recently? It's way more well kept than Toronto is.
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???? I'm not sure where you've been in New York City, but most of what I've seen has been much shabbier. I seldom smell urine in Toronto subway stations. The tiles and paint in many New York stations seem in far worse state than Toronto. And there's a lot more litter on the streets there, except perhaps in parts of Manhatten. I've got relatives there, who have commented that it's a shame that New York isn't as tidy as Toronto.

Now New York has improved a lot. But let's be realistic here.
 
he means north of 34th street and south of Harlem..
Thats like going to the area between Bathurst and the DVP from Bloor to the 401...


:rolleyes:
 
I believe continually voting in an establishment composed of the NDP and the unions to run the city probably is not going to lead to a high degree of operational efficiency for a given level of government revenue. Ultimately it is largely the public sector's job to deal with the cleanliness/look of our public space. We either need more money into the system and/or more results for our dollars. Obviously the two aren't mutually exclusive.
 
Keeping the city clean was the city's main job 20 or so years ago. They had a lot of more resources on the job and most importantly fast food was not as popular. Look today at least 2 thirds of the litter is fast food.

Now the city deals with transit and all kinds of social system and this is true for cities across the country.
 
nfitz said:
???? I'm not sure where you've been in New York City, but most of what I've seen has been much shabbier. I seldom smell urine in Toronto subway stations. The tiles and paint in many New York stations seem in far worse state than Toronto. And there's a lot more litter on the streets there, except perhaps in parts of Manhatten. I've got relatives there, who have commented that it's a shame that New York isn't as tidy as Toronto.

Now New York has improved a lot. But let's be realistic here.
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Maybe Brooklyn and Queens are messy. I don't really know but Manhattan as a whole is quite tidy.
 
lordmandeep said:
Keeping the city clean was the city's main job 20 or so years ago. They had a lot of more resources on the job and most importantly fast food was not as popular. Look today at least 2 thirds of the litter is fast food.
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Exactly so. Toronto streets and public spaces were far cleaner in '85 when I moved here. There seemed to be a constant amount of advertising space on the TTC devoted to reminding people how uncivil it is to leave any litter outside the receptacles provided for that purpose, advertising which had largely disappeared by the mid '90s. Today almost everyone seems to just drop stuff on the street--cigarette buts, wrappers, everything--without a second of hesitation.

Alas, the "bathroom aesthetic" of the TTC subway, which actually looked good (or at least distinctively Torontonian) when the stations were relatively well-maintained, began to look really grotty when maintenance and cleaning schedules were lengthened in the early '90s. These days, stations appear to be cleaned a little more frequently, but the hodge-podge of quick repairs to e.g. leaking cement or defective tiling has essentially destroyed that once proud attempt to make the Toronto subway interior the so much desired outward symbol of Protestant/Presbyterian rectitude...
 
theman23 said:
Have you been to New York, outside of the elite business and residential enclaves? NYC is generally a mess.
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Ah, but only dumb tourists who don't know their way around NYC would be so stupid as to venture outside elite business and residential enclaves. Smart tourists know well enough to stick within safe, well-trod territory.

Of course, smart tourists is de dumbest tourists...;)
 
fiendishlibrarian said:
No money, no pride, a brain-dead hipster intelligentsia that views the shabby and decrepit as "having character" and celebrates the mediocre, fears and sneers at excellence, restraint and discipine, and encourages sloth, indifference and contempt of the public realm in the form of squalor ("grit", as in we're not Coburg etc.), vandalism ("street art") and endless, mindless spam-like postering ("reclaiming public space"), and there you are. Shabby is as shabby does. We get what we deserve, really.
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This is a bit extreme...but really so correct, and sad.
 
theman23 said:
Have you been to New York, outside of the elite business and residential enclaves? NYC is generally a mess.
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And in our elite business district are the rusty, tilting, tape and poster-coated utility poles driven into the gouged and cracked sidewalks.
 
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