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Premier Kathleen Wynne and What Her Election Means for Transit

Of course Brampton needs to grow, but as its own city, with jobs and amenities, not as a Toronto suburb. Toronto is 630km sq big. That's fairly large. If it is still not big enough for you, apparently it is your choice and don't complain it is difficult to travel from Brampton.

Complain? I was just responding to your comment that " assume this trips only happens occasionally,". I am going to assume (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that you are one of those people who passionately defend the notion that "everyone should just move to where they work".

It is an interesting notion that for some reason(s) does not seem to be much of the norm in the GTA.....one has to wonder why (one of the reasons might be that households are, quite often, made up of more than one person and career/life choices might not be exactly the same....for example, not to over personalize things, my wife doesn't commute and I do.....if we moved to DT she would and I wouldn't.....this is not the only reason but it is one).

That this comes up within a discussion about fares by distance is also interesting as those people who need to be DT but feel Toronto is "not big enough" for them to live in long ago accepted that the distance they travel should have an influence on the fare they pay (one could argue if the model/structure of the fares is/is not correct but the concept is well accepted outside 630 sq. km of 416). Another personal anecdote......my non-car commute (walk to bus to Zum to GO train to union walk to office) takes 1 hour 15 minutes and carries a cost of $7.36......a while back I was out drinking with a co-worker and just crashed at his place..... Condo at Sheppard near the DVP....walk to subway...subway to subway......right to office building...took about exactly the same length of time......but only cost $3.

In the context of the fare by distance discussion.....I am not sure you should be focused on the 905-DT commuters.
 
With respect to fare zones:

The system that I would like to see implemented is the following:

1) The GTHA is divided up into fare zones, with Toronto having 3 zones (Central, NW, NE).

2) For the local rapid transit system (Subway, LRT, BRT) I think it should be based on the 'refund model'. That is to say, when you tap with Presto you are charged $4.50 ($2.50 base fare + 2x$1 for additional zones). When you exit the subway, you can tap off and the amount you didn't travel is credited to your card.

So for example, I want to travel from Finch to Dundas. I tap on at Finch, and I get charged $4.50. I tap off at Dundas, and my card is credited with $1.00, because I didn't travel through the 3rd zone.

3) GO would use the same fare zones, although I think that either the base fare or the per zone fare could be higher in order to come close to what the current fares are.

Overall, I think the refund model is the way to go, because it encourages people to tap off, because they get 'money back' (even though it's money that they never actually spent). It's much harder to figure out up front how much they are going to pay, or to pay the base fare up front and then ask them to pay more later.

Here is what it would look like. This is just part of the map that I'm working on (I haven't added all the stations yet): https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43869799/GTA System Map - To Scale.jpg


With respect to tolls:

I think that, at least as a Phase 1, tolls should just be implemented on the Express lanes of the 401. That way no one is 'forced' to pay a toll, and when people can see that tolls aren't going to make the sky fall, it can be implemented on other routes.
 
Or even just put a voluntary toll on the 404 HOV lanes, and convert half of the express lanes on the 401 to toll lanes.

also, you shouldn't be able to go from langstaff station to port credit on one small fare. I agree that is too large of a zone.
 
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^ yet you still think one should pay the same amount for traveling between Queen and Wellesley, which is 1.5km as between Queen/Yonge and Finch/Kennedy, which is 23.5km?
If by central you mean 416, that zone is way to large to even have a purpose.
 
Or even just put a voluntary toll on the 404 HOV lanes, and convert half of the express lanes on the 401 to toll lanes.

I don't think just the HOV lanes should be tolled. They're faster as it is, why discourage people from using them? If anything, HOV lanes should be exempt from tolls, not the other way around.

And the reason why I suggested the express lanes is because they are physically separated from the collector lanes, with interchanges only at select points, so setting up toll cameras at those locations should be relatively easy.

Although for the future expansion of the system, I'd like to see the 400 and possibly the 404 and 410 converted to the E-C system, to allow for the same type of tolling.

also, you shouldn't be able to go from langstaff station to port credit on one small fare. I agree that is too large of a zone.

Weird, the colouring is off. The blue is split at Yonge St, so the zone is Zone 2NW, and Zone 2NE. But in any case, I don't think people would go from Langstaff to Port Credit by going over the top of Toronto. The reality is though that unless you make the fare zones really small, there are always going to be some 'loophole' routes. The goal should be to create a fare zone system that catches the vast majority of trips, and prices them appropriately.
 
^ yet you still think one should pay the same amount for traveling between Queen and Wellesley, which is 1.5km as between Queen/Yonge and Finch/Kennedy, which is 23.5km?
If by central you mean 416, that zone is way to large to even have a purpose.

Again, if you make the zones too small, the fare zone structure becomes incredibly complicated.

This is what it would look like with smaller fare zones: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/43869799/GTA Fare Zones_Option 2.jpg As you can see, it's a pretty big mess. Larger fare zones may not be perfectly scaled to trip distances, but it's a heck of a lot easier to figure out.
 
I don't think just the HOV lanes should be tolled. They're faster as it is, why discourage people from using them? If anything, HOV lanes should be exempt from tolls, not the other way around.

agree....if HOV and tolls share the goal of reducing congestion by reducing the number of cars then it seems counter intuitive to hit the same car with both charges while leaving all those single occupant cars in the other lanes to drive for "free".
 
agree....if HOV and tolls share the goal of reducing congestion by reducing the number of cars then it seems counter intuitive to hit the same car with both charges while leaving all those single occupant cars in the other lanes to drive for "free".

If it were flipped, I'd be totally in favour of it (HOV free, SOV toll). However, even that is extremely difficult to enforce, because there is no physical barrier between the lanes. By and large toll enforcement is a lot easier when vehicles can enter and exit the tolled lanes only at select, monitored points.
 
I am not convinced by charging by distance. First of all, on TTC buses it's a non starter. Does any major city charge by distance on local bus routes? I have never encountered it.

On the subway, is the TTC really extensive enough to justify that kind of system? And is the operating cost that different for someone who rides from Bloor to Union as for someone going much farther?

On the whole, the way to improve TTC service is with higher and more consistent subsidies, commensurate with those in other cities. Everything else is a sideshow.
 
I am not convinced by charging by distance. First of all, on TTC buses it's a non starter. Does any major city charge by distance on local bus routes? I have never encountered it.

On the subway, is the TTC really extensive enough to justify that kind of system? And is the operating cost that different for someone who rides from Bloor to Union as for someone going much farther?

On the whole, the way to improve TTC service is with higher and more consistent subsidies, commensurate with those in other cities. Everything else is a sideshow.

Buses and streetcars would be a single fare, regardless of distance. Of course, with more rapid transit in place, local transit would be bearing less of the long-haul burden anyway.

And when it comes to rapid transit, it isn't just about the TTC, it's about the GTHA. Having a single united fare system and zone system would simplify things immensely.

As for fare zones generating more revenue, let's just put it this way: the last year the TTC recorded a profit was the last year that they had a fare zone structure in place. I don't really think that's a coincidence...
 
And is the operating cost that different for someone who rides from Bloor to Union as for someone going much farther?

Yes, it is different.
Assuming no one travels to north of Bloor, there wouldn't be a need for the subway to go north of Bloor in the first place (therefore maintenance cost associate with tracks, stations and labour), don't you get it?

It is funny to hear someone say "the cost of traveling 3 station and 30 stations are the same" every time. It is NOT. Just because the subway goes further anyway doesn't mean you should get a free ride for the remaining distance.

Try this: take a flight to New York, and if the connecting flight going to Miami is half empty, ask the airline to give you a free ticket using the same logic (me taking this leg doesn't add to your operating cost at all) and see if it works.
 
Require a passenger to tap to get off a surface vehicle with 4 sets of doors? How do you know when they are getting off? What if they get off to let other passengers off? What if they can't back on? Also the GPS is often unreliable ... it normally knows where the vehicle is - but sometimes loses them - particularly downtown with tall towers. Say I've got two kids with me ... not only do I have to make sure they get off the streetcar safely without getting run over, I need to get each one to tap off?

Seems like a way to make transit usage even less convenient.

Possibly ... but you'd still have to institute tapping off. Which makes all our subway stations with built-in bus terminals problematic. You'd have to redesign a lot of stations to put fare gates in. Only a handful were designed for this - such at Main Street, which is why the mezzanine is so large down there - for the old fare gates, because it was the zone boundary.

I don't think surface vehicles could be fare by distance, and as others have mentioned I'm not aware of any mass transit systems that have FBD on buses or trams for local service. You don't have to necessarily install fare gates at stations though to get FBD on the subway - you could just go the GO route and install standalone PRESTO machines to tap on/tap off on the bus platforms, and some TVMs for those who don't have PRESTO. Failure to tap on would deduct maximum fare if there are gates at the exit of your destination that you have to tap to get through.

Weird, the colouring is off. The blue is split at Yonge St, so the zone is Zone 2NW, and Zone 2NE. But in any case, I don't think people would go from Langstaff to Port Credit by going over the top of Toronto. The reality is though that unless you make the fare zones really small, there are always going to be some 'loophole' routes. The goal should be to create a fare zone system that catches the vast majority of trips, and prices them appropriately.

Have you looked at the fare system in London? There are nine concentric zones and the further out you go the more each zone costs, so trips across the core from the far side of the city to the other are quite expensive. They encourage avoidance of the core by placing secondary readers at key interchange stations outside of zone one. This way, if you want to save money you can take a more circuitous (but not necessarily slower) trip from one side of the city the the other avoiding zone one, and when you change trains in zone 2 or 3 you tap at the interchange station to prove to the system that you didn't travel through the core. It makes your trip cheaper and it reduces strain on the 150 year old central infrastructure. I think there is a lot that Toronto can learn from London, they also deduct maximum fare when you tap on and then refund the difference when you tap off, giving incentive to tap off.
 
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The other great thing about London's fare system is that you can ride any type of vehicle between two zones and you will pay the same price. Whether it's National Rail (equivalent to VIA), the London Overground (equivalent to GO), or the Tube, your fare will be the same between two zones.
 

Wynne better tread lightly around the issues of revenue and taxes, or she risks Hudak making this an election label and pitting Toronto against the rest of the province.

A selection of fine comments:

westender
Yup,, there you go,, first thing she does is buy votes in Toronto.
Of course I imagine any Liberal would as that's the only way to stay in the trough.
Jan 29, 2013 2:10 PM Agree (20) Disagree (16)

Marilyn
HERE COMES ANOTHER LIBERAL TAX
When the Liberals say we need more revenue, expect a new tax.
Jan 29, 2013 2:05 PM Agree (20) Disagree (12)

jerry jordan
toronto toronto toronto
sick of hearing about toronto all the time. the MAJORITY of voters kathleen live in all the rest of ontario . what are you going to do for us? you represent ALL of ontario not just the big smoke.
Jan 29, 2013 3:26 PM Agree (15) Disagree (14)

RJB67
Here we go again
At least she is not starting her reign of terror with "NO NEW TAXES" But get ready, lots of new taxes, but I guarantee you will see little to no improvement. But I bet you a few more locals from CUPE get huge raises.
Jan 29, 2013 2:02 PM Agree (13) Disagree (8)

nedflanders77
NOT SURPRISED
Typical Toronto politician. It's the Toronto first and Ontario second attitude.
IT SHOULD BE THE ECONOMY FIRST!!!!
Jan 29, 2013 3:15 PM Agree (12) Disagree (4)

Chas_AM
GREAT !!!
The first thing she does is talk about more friggin taxes. GREAT !Oh, and pandering to the looney lefty base in "center of the universe" Toronto. Sounds like more of the same VOTE BUYING by the Ontario Liberals. They lost one customer (education unionists) but are now looking for another. Seems neither leopards nor Liberals can change their spots! Same old Liberals, how sad for us.
Jan 29, 2013 3:06 PM Agree (5) Disagree (2)

ANTI UNION TAXPAYER
its the economy and jobs stupid...
this woman is out to lunch and clearly out of touch with voters and businesses.
Jan 29, 2013 2:57 PM Agree (11) Disagree (4)

A bit of sense into what may become a frighteningly partisan issue...
ProfessorPolitics
Road Tolls = Fourth Rail of Politics.
If you think religious education funding is the third rail you ain't seen nothin' yet.
Jan 29, 2013 2:11 PM Agree (13) Disagree (6)
 
I was going to start listing some of the other great things about London like that, but I wanted to keep my post concise. One thing to mention about that though is that buses and river services don't count towards what you mentioned, buses and trams are flat rate (as they should be) and river services are more expensive and come in a variety of different styles, from commuter express to slow tourist style. River services are run on contract by 3rd parties.

As well as the rates being the same across all rail modes though, they also have peak pricing and daily caps. Like GO's monthly cap, once you ride the tube for the equivalent amount as a day pass you stop being charged. The system is flexible enough to calculate the different costs of the daily passes across different zones so you get the best rate. Presto 2.0 should be capable of all of this, whether or not it happens is another story.
 

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