New University...where should it go?

I think Port Colborne could be a decent place to site a university, so long as it's well-considered, and small at first (probably no more than 5 - 7,000). As I recall, the population is around 28,000 (not 15,000). The city doesn't have a significant transit system (they may or may not have a bus or two--I don't know if it was implemented), no Greyhound connection, and limited retail. So, the town would need infrastructure improvements. I think that two locations in Pt. Colborne that could work are either the island in the middle of town (limited connections, a bit smallish, but otherwise a fair cheap location, nearer retail) or on the east side of town (a couple of concessions could be bought to allow for expansion).

Dunno if this'll work, but: google map

marcus_a_j said:

I was told in a class this year that Trent was planning on opening a satelite campus on the Toronto Waterfront. I don't know how much truth there is to that, but just throwing it out there.

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Right now Trent is broke. The province has been screwing over smaller universities with their incentives meant for larger schools (like for grad programs, etc). Right now they're being forced to sell off half of the downtown Peterborough campus to pay for a conversion of the other half into a grad college in order to get some provincial funding. There isn't enough space for students or faculty on main campus, and enrollment actually decreased this year.

Peterborough is a great city. I live downtown - and yeah there are some not great areas (like the drug den the next street over), but it's relatively safe. There is definately a bohemian feel to the area, and transit is okay for a city its size.

The province should be interested in creating smaller universities instead of building one giant one in the middle of a suburban wasteland. For example, a city like Sarnia would probably benefit from a small university. Also, it would be a great idea for the province to co-ordinate the university with the plans for these mobility hubs. Like, Midtown Oakville would be the perfect place to open up a university - or just upgrade Sheridan to a university as it is fairly close. Maybe a Univeristy of Halton with campuses in Oakville, Burlington, and Milton.

If they build the school outside of the GTA, housing for students would be much cheaper off campus. For example, I pay about half the rent in Peterborough for a decent place for what it would cost for someone in the GTA (especially Toronto) for relatively poor housing.

The design on the school should also attract foreign students. For example, prayer areas for Muslim students.

Lesouris, welcome to the forum and thanks for the pertinent comments.

I don't know Peterborough as well as some, but I find myself there maybe once per year. I have always thought it was a nice and very "liveable" city. They are actually a waterfront city, although not on a large lake, and have made the most of this. The downtown is one of the more attractive in Ontario, with good architecture and few if any vacant storefronts.

I seem to remember the Trent campus as being very attractive, although I have not wandered around there in several years. Sorry to hear that the Univ. is being starved for money.

There is a lot to be said for expanding smaller universities, as opposed to expanding a few larger ones ad infinitum. Smaller places can provide a very good quality of education, at least for undergrads.

BTW, regarding the size issue, its safe to say that small towns can certainly support universities. College town is a concept the world over.

I think wherever a new university goes to (if it actually happens), the town/city needs to sign some sort of agreement about how to deal with the student housing situation upfront. The current chaos going on in Oshawa, that included cops using locksmiths to break into student housing and looking through their belongings to find rental contracts, and a Human Rights Appeal likely looming with regards to their newest bylaw being passed, is a sign that the "town folk" have to be on board just as much as the municipal politicans. It just screws over everyone in the end because no one is happy with whatever happens.

scarberiankhatru said:

It's been proven time and again all over the place...they're called college towns.

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Most small (under 20k) college towns are home to institutions that are as old as the towns themselves. Places like Dartmouth, Princeton, St Andrews, they're established Universities, and the towns have built around them. They're part of the fabric of the town, and were never forced upon it.

afransen said:

I think Port Colborne could be a decent place to site a university, so long as it's well-considered, and small at first (probably no more than 5 - 7,000). As I recall, the population is around 28,000 (not 15,000). The city doesn't have a significant transit system (they may or may not have a bus or two--I don't know if it was implemented), no Greyhound connection, and limited retail. So, the town would need infrastructure improvements. I think that two locations in Pt. Colborne that could work are either the island in the middle of town (limited connections, a bit smallish, but otherwise a fair cheap location, nearer retail) or on the east side of town (a couple of concessions could be bought to allow for expansion).

Dunno if this'll work, but: google map

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Port Colborne as of the last census had 18600 people, and I would estimate that 25% of it or more is rural. Have any of you been to Port Colborne? Have you seen what's actually there and the conditions of the town? Do you know that there are lift bridges in the downtown that make it impossible to have any decent form of reliable public transit and that also create traffic jams, even with such a minute population? I mean, you've decided that the island would be a great place for a university. Do you even know what's there? Lakeshore high school sits on one side, which already creates traffic nightmares with its 1400 students and staff. Notice that space is green as well? How about we build a university on Toronto island?

I discussed this with a friend of mine from Port Colborne last night and she laughed. She said that you might as well put it in Wainfleet. There simply isn't the money or infrastructure to support it, and even if it was successful, almost all Port Colborne citizens wouldn't be able to afford their homes. Essentially its like you guys just looked around on Google Earth for a small lakeside town and thought you could plop a university down like Sim City.

As I've said before, Welland is a far better choice. You're looking at a city with far more prime real estate, better infrastructure, a public transit system and a central location for 500k people. Hell, we even have city buses that go from St Catharines to Welland and a regional bus system is trying to be planned. Take a look at Welland on Google Earth, and salivate at the possibilities. Really.

jn_12 said:

Most small (under 20k) college towns are home to institutions that are as old as the towns themselves. Places like Dartmouth, Princeton, St Andrews, they're established Universities, and the towns have built around them. They're part of the fabric of the town, and were never forced upon it.

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There's absolutely no reason why a college town couldn't be formed today. We can build a new town around a new university, or we can even ask a town if they want a university. It's not like they're going to throw a dart at a map and start building a 40,000 student campus the next day. The purpose of this thread *is* to play SimCity with regards to where new universities should go.

SimCity 4 or 3000?

Why, 3000, of course.

jn_12 said:

Port Colborne as of the last census had 18600 people, and I would estimate that 25% of it or more is rural. Have any of you been to Port Colborne?

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I went to high school there, and lived in Gasline as a child.

Have you seen what's actually there and the conditions of the town? Do you know that there are lift bridges in the downtown that make it impossible to have any decent form of reliable public transit

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Port Colborne is better off than St. Catharines with regard to bridges over the canal. Yes, the canal is busy (I've waited many times for the bridge, and watched the ships go by from the portables during math class).

and that also create traffic jams, even with such a minute population?

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Transit over the canal will always be a challenge until there's a fixed link that isn't disrupted by the canal. I would hardly say it's impossible. A relatively simple system could allow for dynamic routing based on anticipated bridge activity. There is always at least one bridge down of the three. A challenge, but not impossible.

I mean, you've decided that the island would be a great place for a university. Do you even know what's there? Lakeshore high school sits on one side,

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Lakeshore is not on the island. I know this as I went to school there. Any traffic associated with it is usually on the east side of the canal, particularly on Janet. The island has Lock 8 park, a firehall, some modest homes, some retail along Hwy 3, and some light industry. It has quite a bit of empty land around the firehall, which, IIRC is owned by the city. It's also worth noting that the bridges on the west side of the island are fixed, as it isn't used by ships.

I discussed this with a friend of mine from Port Colborne last night and she laughed. She said that you might as well put it in Wainfleet.

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That's not even reasonable. Wainfleet doesn't have a grocery store, a doctor, any retail to speak of aside from a handful of convenience stores. It doesn't even have an honest downtown. I should know, as I've lived there for 13 years. Port Colborne, on the other hand, has adequate retail to support a small campus.

There simply isn't the money or infrastructure to support it, and even if it was successful, almost all Port Colborne citizens wouldn't be able to afford their homes. Essentially its like you guys just looked around on Google Earth for a small lakeside town and thought you could plop a university down like Sim City.

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I don't know what you mean by money... funding for such things comes from the province, regardless of which municipality it is located in. You also overestimate the impact on real estate values. Port Colborne couldn't support a university much larger than 3,000 - 4,000 students, and that would only take up perhaps 350-500 homes (assuming half live in new residences and the other half live 4 to a unit). As it is, Port Colborne real estate is pretty depressed (as is most of Niagara). I think a more significant impact might be from faculty buying homes in the area.

As I've said before, Welland is a far better choice. You're looking at a city with far more prime real estate, better infrastructure, a public transit system and a central location for 500k people. Hell, we even have city buses that go from St Catharines to Welland and a regional bus system is trying to be planned. Take a look at Welland on Google Earth, and salivate at the possibilities. Really.

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Welland already has a Niagara College campus. Yes, it does have significantly more amenities. Transit outside of St. Catharines/Niagara Falls (hell, even including them) is laughably pathetic, so I doubt it makes much difference either way. In the end, it would be more logical to build a university in either St. Catharines or NF. A university in Port Colborne could provide some significant economic stimulus, which that city desperately needs (more so than Welland, it would seem). Depending on what you consider to be important, I think either the larger cities or the smaller city would be more appropriate than Welland.



All in all, I think you mistook my post for an argument that a university should be built in Pt. Colborne. I was rather trying to illustrate the feasibility of it. I don't know if it would be a very good idea, to be honest. I sure as hell wouldn't attend university there (like I said previously, it's a dump).

jn_12 said:

Might as well put it in Welland as I have said before. It's right in the geographical middle of the region, and is in dire need of some help. I don't know why Brock hasn't thought about establishing a campus in Welland, but it's what I'd like to see happen.

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Why would Brock waste its resources in Welland when Brock is south of St.Catherines and is such a short trip down the 406 from Welland? That seems like competing with itself limiting Brock's ability to add new faculties.

^ afransen: Sorry for making the incorrect assumption that you knew nothing about Port Colborne. I thought maybe you were someone from Oakville who had just heard of the town now and looked it up on Google Earth and wikipedia. Hopefully it didn't come across as too asshole-ish, though it obviously did.

I think Niagara College can co-exist with a University campus. It works in Peterborough and North Bay, just to name a couple, and both attract different types of people. At best Niagara College could put a satellite campus in Port, but I don't know if they could support anything significant.

Why would Brock waste its resources in Welland when Brock is south of St.Catherines and is such a short trip down the 406 from Welland? That seems like competing with itself limiting Brock's ability to add new faculties.

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Well it doesn't necessarily need to be a Brock Campus, but Brock could create far more in Welland than they could in its current location on the escarpment. While I don't think Brock's campus has reached its limits, it is limited by its location. People already spend more time walking from their parking spots than they do driving to the campus. Putting more people on the campus isn't going to help, and St Catharines isn't likely to improve transit service and cope.

And what does distance have to do with creating facilities? If anything, if we examine the Trent example, we see that great distances between campuses aren't necessarily beneficial. Most students can't get from Peterborough to Oshawa (or vice versa) for classes and therefore miss out, and those who go to the Oshawa school rarely go to Peterborough and become a part of the Trent community. The distance between the two campuses does nothing for Trent students/community. Shorter distances can provide students with more options, and create some operating flexibility.

Obviously, both cities would then benefit from a stronger inter-city transit system. If students have a need to go between both cities, others will benefit. You could even have another campus in Niagara Falls and now you have the foundation for at least a tri-city system. I think a campus in Welland (or even Niagara Falls) is a way to tackle multiple issues at once, and can only be a good thing for Niagara. It's an important region in the province, and its improvement would help create a lot of opportunities.

Well it doesn't necessarily need to be a Brock Campus, but Brock could create far more in Welland than they could in its current location on the escarpment. While I don't think Brock's campus has reached its limits, it is limited by its location. People already spend more time walking from their parking spots than they do driving to the campus. Putting more people on the campus isn't going to help, and St Catharines isn't likely to improve transit service and cope.

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So, what's one to do with the existing campus? (Interesting question: are there any cases out there of boomer-era commuter campuses that have been closed down, sold off, redeveloped, etc.)

The only campuses I can think of where it's common to have classes at both without a great deal of travel (ie, can be done walking), is Waterloo and WLU. Even then, it's less than ideal as it usually takes more like 15 minutes to get between the campuses given a 10 minute break between lecture slots. Ryerson and UofT? I don't know know if people do this in practice, though.

adma said:

So, what's one to do with the existing campus? (Interesting question: are there any cases out there of boomer-era commuter campuses that have been closed down, sold off, redeveloped, etc.)

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I think the existing campus is fine the way it is. Have I suggested that it be sold off or redeveloped? I'm only suggesting a satellite campus.

afransen said:

The only campuses I can think of where it's common to have classes at both without a great deal of travel (ie, can be done walking), is Waterloo and WLU. Even then, it's less than ideal as it usually takes more like 15 minutes to get between the campuses given a 10 minute break between lecture slots. Ryerson and UofT? I don't know know if people do this in practice, though.

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Well, the distance between Brock and a Welland campus would be 10-15kms. The distance between Trent and its downtown campus is roughly 7kms. It takes 10-20 mins to get from the main campus to the downtown one by bus (depending on traffic and the number of stops/people getting on and off the bus). This means if you've scheduled yourself back to back classes, you're out of luck getting to the second one on time. Most students avoid this though if they can, and in my experience I think only during one semester out of 4 years did I have back to back classes and they were on the same campus. I think it happens so rarely that it isn't really an issue, and if a student does come across this situation then a chat with the prof about finding solutions can probably rectify it.