Toronto St. Clair West Transit Improvements | ?m | ?s | TTC

One Centre Platform?

I'm not sure this was mentioned in one of the many pages on this topic, but...

Why didn't they build a single centre passenger platform shared by both East and Westbound LRT's?

Weren't the most contentious issues losing parking and sidewalk space on St.Clair? A centre platform would take up only half of the built platform space, thus leaving room for an entire lane of parking or increasing sidewalk space on both sides.

EDIT: Nevermind. I see that there are never two platforms parallel to each other so the point is moot.

MetroMan said:

I'm not sure this was mentioned in one of the many pages on this topic, but...

Why didn't they build a single centre passenger platform shared by both East and Westbound LRT's?

Weren't the most contentious issues losing parking and sidewalk space on St.Clair? A centre platform would take up only half of the built platform space, thus leaving room for an entire lane of parking or increasing sidewalk space on both sides.

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You're going to slap yourself when you read this, but the answer has to do with where the streetcars have doors and where they don't

I actually had thought of that. I had even written it in my post but deleted it. Since we have the luxury of selecting how our Transit City LRT's will be designed, we could have doors on both sides like subways.

An alternative would be simply swapping the direction of each streetcar lane so that the doors face towards the centre. The way it was built makes more sense for pedestrian safety and convenience since the platforms are closer to the sidewalk.

Nonetheless, like I said in my edit, the point is moot because there aren't parallel platforms. Where there's a platform on one side, there isn't one on the other: it's on the other side of the intersection.

MetroMan said:

I'm not sure this was mentioned in one of the many pages on this topic, but...

Why didn't they build a single centre passenger platform shared by both East and Westbound LRT's?

Weren't the most contentious issues losing parking and sidewalk space on St.Clair? A centre platform would take up only half of the built platform space, thus leaving room for an entire lane of parking or increasing sidewalk space on both sides.

EDIT: Nevermind. I see that there are never two platforms parallel to each other so the point is moot.

Click to expand...

1. Since TTC only wanted single end cars, doors on one side only and bad choice.

2. Traffic engineers were unwilling to give up traffic lanes in favor of transit.

3. BIA's unwilling to loose parking spots.

4. In some spots not enough room to do it.

Keele St is getting parallel platforms and Oakwood has them now.

Wire should be strung this week from Robina Ave to Dufferin St for the final connection. TTC Crews were checking the underground power feeds on Friday.

First part of Phase 4 was supposed to be strung last week and it will now be after Phase II is completed.

Phase I overhead is to be rebuilt sometime in 2010 to match the current overhead been installed for pantograph.

No word when Oakwood will be strung as they are wait material from overseas for it. It will be the same type been use for Gunns Loop in March/April 2010 that will see service in May 2010. Lansdowne Loop is a different type of pan.

Traffic will be shift to one side of the bridge with traffic using the new ROW after the top coat is pour on the east side as the west side is done.

East bound traffic has been using the ROW while the lanes rebuilt.

The existing new sidewalk is to have driveways cut of them and possibility the same will happen for a new entrance to that new development on the north side. A fair number of OPPPSS!!! we miss this and that.

Construction is to start in Feb on rebuilding Gunns Loop with provision to take tracks west along with the switches for that as another Oppss!! and 4 months delay.

Dufferin Construction will be finish as far as they can go over the next 3 weeks subject to weather.

MetroMan said:

I actually had thought of that. I had even written it in my post but deleted it. Since we have the luxury of selecting how our Transit City LRT's will be designed, we could have doors on both sides like subways.

Click to expand...

Except when St. Clair was designed (remember, the whole project is probably five years behind it's initial planned timeframe), TC didn't exist and new streetcars were assumed to be arriving not until something like ten years after it opened.

TC's LRVs will be double-ended with doors on both sides, and there will be island platforms used sporadically.

An alternative would be simply swapping the direction of each streetcar lane so that the doors face towards the centre. The way it was built makes more sense for pedestrian safety and convenience since the platforms are closer to the sidewalk

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Now there's some fun lateral thinking. This might actually fall afoul of the highway traffic act and require some intervention by Queens Park, assuming, that is, that a cadre of road safety sorts wouldn't proclaim this an accident waiting to happen.

But yeah, as drum was saying, the configuration selected mostly has to do with leaving space for left turn lanes. The tracks themselves snake from side to side to ensure that there's room for the platforms.

If the TTC had reversed directions for their streetcars on the ROW (eastbound on the north and westbound on the south), they could have used center shared platforms. However, the automobile drivers would probably have panicked seeing streetcar coming at them headon. Training the automobile drivers not to worry would be impossible, especially out-of-towners.

^ Why? Those streetcars are on a separate lane. Drivers see other vehicles coming at them all the time.

Drum, can you elaborate on this please? "Phase I overhead is to be rebuilt sometime in 2010 to match the current overhead been installed for pantograph." Is this another WTF moment can they not get anything right????

Necessary Evil said:

Drum, can you elaborate on this please? "Phase I overhead is to be rebuilt sometime in 2010 to match the current overhead been installed for pantograph." Is this another WTF moment can they not get anything right????

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The line was never design for pantograph as TTC had no experience in doing it and TC was never thought of at the time.

TTC has talked about converting the existing system to pan in the past , but that was as far as it went except to get wire that could be used for pan or pole.

Since TC has surface and going to be pan, Phase III was the first attempt at learning on the job. The Lansdowne Loop has seen various changes and still missing some crossover frogs with string holding the wire up.

If you look at any existing loop or turning system and look at Lansdowne Loop, you will see the big difference.

I get the feeling that St Clair would be a test bed for TC equipment if the track gauge stay the same for the Hillcrest folks and there for it need pan.

If you look where where the support wire is strung from pole to pole over the intersections and areas that don't have centre poles, they are different from the current system.

Therefore you cannot have two different type of overhead systems on the same line and that is why Phase I is been rebuilt. It not one of those WTF things.

There are photo's and video's up on Youtube for Phase III that I shot a few months ago that shows what the new overhead looks like for the loop. Type in StClair Phase III or Lansdowne Loop for the video's tag TTC Transit. I have too many up there nor the time to check for them at this time.

There is no real difference for the mainline other a different support bracket.

Going to pan is long over due and should have been done when the first 6 arrived from oversea with pantograph on them.

Didn't they do Fleet for pantograph as well?

Come Dec 20, we get a chance to take a wacky ride on the eastbound great track work from Westmount Ave to Glenholme Ave.

I have call this section the section design by a drunken sailor. There were a lot of red flags put on the work by inspectors in regard to the construction of this section, but were ignored to get this ROW built on time.

This section sees no straight track work at all considering it was very straight before construction.

Between the City and the contractor, various sections were almost a foot off out of alignment since they were built at different times. The contractor was blaming TTC for putting the tracks in the wrong location and had to laugh at that considering TTC lays the tracks after all the base concrete is pour with the placement of the man holes and vault location at that time. In some cases, the City layout the ROW wrong since they set the positioning of it in the first place.

It will be interesting to see if this section has an operation impact requiring streetcars to travel a a lower speed than the rest of the line. You may get that roller coast ride feeling. When the New LRT's start using this section, it will be a snake looking as it travels east.

This section should had been rebuilt.

Oh my god, that's terrible. Absolutely inexcusable in any circumstance. If the city screwed that up someone (like, an entire department) should be fired, and if the contractor screwed that up they should be sued into oblivion and blacklisted from ever doing a city contract again.

That's a rather unacceptable outcome. I think it's high time the city rethink how public works are done - clearly the piecemeal, uncoordinated and error prone process involving a dozen plus players is not working - and that goes from St. Clair to the biannual works on Yonge. It's incredibly inefficient and disruptive to say the least.

AoD

Drum, you should send those photos in to all the local newspapers- if they publish them that should put some pressure on the TTC to have it fixed.

Surely it's better to delay the opening than to have to live with this for years... A competent contractor might even be able to rush and redo it by the 20th, who knows.