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Road Tolls

Should we have road tolls?

  • Yes we should

    Votes: 64 77.1%
  • No we shouldn't

    Votes: 19 22.9%

  • Total voters
    83
For. However, it needs to be implemented with a regional transit plan with concrete goals, otherwise it becomes nothing more than a cash grab.

To start, it should be implemented on the Gardiner ramps to York/Bay/Yonge Streets during rush hour. This is because this is closest to Union Station which is currently served by excellent transit from across the region during this time period. As regional rapid transit expands, more ramps can be tolled during more times. Eventually, entire stretches of local highways could be tolled, as long as there is a transit alternative available.
 
I think if we only see tolls on the DVP and the gardner then it should go to a full west and east DRL up unto eglingon since these are the routes the drivers could most likely divert to... If we toll the 401 then the tolls should go to a sheppard expansion and more Go options... if we toll the 404 that should go to the yonge line...
 
I have given this some thought, and I think the concept of "a highway within a highway" should be predominantly used for tolling 400 series highways. With some modest reconfigurations, quite a few highways in the GTA can be reconfigured to a tolled express and free collectors type of configuration.

Here's the highways I think can be reconfigured for this purpose:

-401 (Obviously): From Brock Road to Mavis (I think that's where the E/C system is ending, isn't it?). The 'gap' between Islington and the 427 would need to be finished though.

-400: From 401 to 407, or maybe up to Major MacKenzie. Just north of the 401, it's already 6 lanes, so convert it to 3 and 3.

-404: In many places just north of the 401, it's already 6 lanes. Again, reconfigure between the 401 and 407, with widenings where necessary.

-427: Already kind of an E/C system between the QEW and 401. Reconfigure for full E/C.

The key thing with this is the option to travel tolled or to travel free. No one is being forced to be tolled, but it gives people who place a premium on time to pay for a faster trip.

In terms of revenue spending, I think the optics would look good if the revenue was split 50/50 between transit and roads. However, the funding from general revenues can be changed so that more of the road funding goes to transit. I suggest 50/50 because the roadistas will only support tolling if it means more money going to highways. 50/50 sounds fair, although the back-end funding can be adjusted so that the net result is 80/20 in terms of the new funds.

The highways portion of the new revenues should go to extending the paid express/free collector systems further east and west on the 401, and north on the 400 and 404. This would be 'free money' going to build a larger system to get more revenue. If the net result is less money for highway expansion is coming from general revenues, then I would consider that a win.
 
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The "move closer to work" meme is ridiculous as many have pointed out.

Between where my wife and I work is 22 KM. She has been at her job 20 years, I have been at mine 11. Maybe it would just be easier to divorce for the sake of congestion?

The average price of a home in Oshawa was $243K in 2011, in Toronto it was $465K. This includes condos.

When we look at detached homes, the average was $290,000 for Oshawa and Toronto $776,000. Maybe the families from Oshawa will move into a one bedroom unit in the core? They will have to double their mortgage to afford it and sleep on berths like on a cruise ship but think of the relief on traffic congestion.

Hmmm...I wonder who's going to move into their homes when they sell them? It wouldn't be people who work in Toronto I guess.
 
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I have given this some thought, and I think the concept of "a highway within a highway" should be predominantly used for tolling 400 series highways. With some modest reconfigurations, quite a few highways in the GTA can be reconfigured to a tolled express and free collectors type of configuration.

Here's the highways I think can be reconfigured for this purpose:

-401 (Obviously): From Brock Road to Mavis (I think that's where the E/C system is ending, isn't it?). The 'gap' between Islington and the 427 would need to be finished though.

-400: From 401 to 407, or maybe up to Major MacKenzie. Just north of the 401, it's already 6 lanes, so convert it to 3 and 3.

-404: In many places just north of the 401, it's already 6 lanes. Again, reconfigure between the 401 and 407, with widenings where necessary.

-427: Already kind of an E/C system between the QEW and 401. Reconfigure for full E/C.

The key thing with this is the option to travel tolled or to travel free. No one is being forced to be tolled, but it gives people who place a premium on time to pay for a faster trip.

In terms of revenue spending, I think the optics would look good if the revenue was split 50/50 between transit and roads. However, the funding from general revenues can be changed so that more of the road funding goes to transit. I suggest 50/50 because the roadistas will only support tolling if it means more money going to highways. 50/50 sounds fair, although the back-end funding can be adjusted so that the net result is 80/20 in terms of the new funds.

The highways portion of the new revenues should go to extending the paid express/free collector systems further east and west on the 401, and north on the 400 and 404. This would be 'free money' going to build a larger system to get more revenue. If the net result is less money for highway expansion is coming from general revenues, then I would consider that a win.

That is actually a very good idea, and a great way of putting it as well. I'd also had some some kind of bus or rail REGIONAL rapid transit (stops located a minimum of 2km apart, average of around 4-6km) be added along the express lanes AND that the fare should come to less than the tolls. This will provide an affordable and attractive alternative to driving, and will help keep the "free" lanes from overcrowding.
 
The "move closer to work" meme is ridiculous as many have pointed out.
Indeed.

Between where my wife and I work is 22 KM. She has been at her job 20 years, I have been at mine 11. Maybe it would just be easier to divorce for the sake of congestion?

The average price of a home in Oshawa was $243K in 2011, in Toronto it was $465K. This includes condos.

When we look at detached homes, the average was $290,000 for Oshawa and Toronto $776,000. Maybe the families from Oshawa will move into a one bedroom unit in the core? They will have to double their mortgage to afford it and sleep on berths like on a cruise ship but think of the relief on traffic congestion.

Hmmm...I wonder who's going to move into their homes when they sell them? It wouldn't be people who work in Toronto I guess.
Road tolls are a regressive tax on the poor and middle class.

Imposing tolls on non residents only: bad idea. Some arbitrary line on Steeles Avenue should not determine whether you pay tolls or not. Also, almost as many people commute out of Toronto as commute in to Toronto. Why should a person who lives in Toronto who drives on the DVP to get to Markham not pay a toll while a person who lives in Markham who drives on the DVP to get to Toronto pay a toll? The purpose of these tolls is to encourage people who work in Toronto to move to Toronto and people who work in Markham to move to Markham.

Also any road tolling scheme needs to avoid charging excessively high toll rates (particularly during off peak times) which lead to the road being used far below capacity. Highway 407 charges high off peak tolls to maximize profit which leads to it being underused while Highway 7 suffers from traffic jams all day 7 days a week. Tolls should be very low, or free during off peak hours. Otherwise people who use the Gardiner will switch to Lake Shore East/Queensway/Dundas/Bloor, and people who use the DVP will switch to Avenue/Yonge/Mt Pleasant/Bayview/Leslie/Don Mills/Victoria Park/Woodbine/Lake Shore East. Charging only the amount of tolls needed to decongest the highways (which may mean no tolls at certain off peak times) will minimize spillover traffic.
Yeah, the few times I've been on the 407 it has seemed grossly underutilized, a poor use of the dollars spent and land used, at least from the perspective of the general public.
 
Indeed.


Road tolls are a regressive tax on the poor and middle class.


Yeah, the few times I've been on the 407 it has seemed grossly underutilized, a poor use of the dollars spent and land used, at least from the perspective of the general public.

I guess the tolls on the New Jersey thruways and the New York bridges and tunnels, is one reason New York City is not good example.
 
So, because I like doing maps, I decided to do a map illustrating the point that I made earlier today, specifically with how the concept of a "highway within a highway" would work throughout the GTA.

GTA Highways.jpg


The biggest sticking point, mainly because it's the only highway that's being tolled where the "highway within a highway" isn't possible is the QEW/Gardiner/DVP combo. To counter that, I propose rush hour only tolls.

All of the other tolled routes (besides the 407) will be tolled routes within a free highway, so taking the tolled lanes is optional.

I suspect that what will inevitably happen is the free collectors will be very close to congested at nearly all waking hours of the day, with the tolled express carrying whatever overflow exists. If the collectors are free flowing, the number of people taking the express will naturally decrease.
 

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  • GTA Highways.jpg
    GTA Highways.jpg
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^if the goal is to raise money....I would immediately toll the 410. Of the 4 "400" series highways I drive on nearly daily....that one is the most consistantly congested and it is a bit of a captive audience. Guaranteed revenue generation!

It would also ease the 401 around the airport because, if they are going to pay a toll anyway, more people would exit the 410 at the 407 instead of wating/waiting/waitng to get the 401 in the morning.
 
^if the goal is to raise money....I would immediately toll the 410. Of the 4 "400" series highways I drive on nearly daily....that one is the most consistantly congested and it is a bit of a captive audience. Guaranteed revenue generation!

It would also ease the 401 around the airport because, if they are going to pay a toll anyway, more people would exit the 410 at the 407 instead of wating/waiting/waitng to get the 401 in the morning.

I was just concerned that of the central N-S highways, the 410 is the narrowest. It's 4 lanes just north of the 401, and it's down to 3 shortly after. Widening it out to 6 lanes would be a pretty big expense, especially compared with converting the 400, which is already 6 lanes wide. I would think the minimum number of lanes that would be needed in order to effectively run a Tolled Express/Untolled Local combination is 6 lanes (3 and 3).

Do you think the ROW is wide enough to fit a 6 lane express/local combo between the 401 and 407 at least? Would the bridges need to be rebuilt to accommodate?

Maybe the 410 would be a project that could be done using the revenue from the other tolls.
 
410 going north in the morning (before 7 am) is not too bad. 410 south at that time, and at home time, is bad. I won't take 410 south from work anymore, as I can only get from Steeles to Derry without congestion, after that it's terrible.
 
I was just concerned that of the central N-S highways, the 410 is the narrowest. It's 4 lanes just north of the 401, and it's down to 3 shortly after. Widening it out to 6 lanes would be a pretty big expense, especially compared with converting the 400, which is already 6 lanes wide. I would think the minimum number of lanes that would be needed in order to effectively run a Tolled Express/Untolled Local combination is 6 lanes (3 and 3).

Do you think the ROW is wide enough to fit a 6 lane express/local combo between the 401 and 407 at least? Would the bridges need to be rebuilt to accommodate?

Maybe the 410 would be a project that could be done using the revenue from the other tolls.

I thought the point of tolls was to raise revenue to build transit? Why, when you have these people captive on the 410, would we waste any of the raised revenue building more roads.....doesn't that just delay the DRL or electrification of the lakeshore GO?
 
I thought the point of tolls was to raise revenue to build transit? Why, when you have these people captive on the 410, would we waste any of the raised revenue building more roads.....doesn't that just delay the DRL or electrification of the lakeshore GO?

It's all in the political optics. If you say that the revenue is going 50% to transit, 50% to road expansion, those drivers will be more likely to support it than if it was all going to transit.

However, what can be done is some of the general tax revenue that is currently going to roads can be shifted to transit, so in reality transit still sees a significant boost, whereas road funding stays pretty much constant.

It's sort of a sneaky trick, but when people aren't rational about it in the first place, they're not going to look that deep into the accounting. Perception matters more than reality, and the PERCEPTION will be that both services are getting an equal boost of funds.

Rest assured, in the end GO REX will get the funding that it needs through this scheme.

410 going north in the morning (before 7 am) is not too bad. 410 south at that time, and at home time, is bad. I won't take 410 south from work anymore, as I can only get from Steeles to Derry without congestion, after that it's terrible.

In the PM isn't a lot of that SB congestion just spill-over from the WB 401? We'll see how much of a difference it'll make once the 401 E/C system is open further west of there.

I would consider making Allen Rd. always tolled. At least after 2020, since the Eglinton and Allen intersection will be serviced by a rapid transit interchange.

Also, money raised can be used to add free lanes to the QEW through Mississauga, as well as the Gardiner and DVP.

I don't really see a lot of benefit in that. It's only 3.5 kms long, and 2 lanes in each direction. Assuming that the tolling system will be a per km basis, and the relatively low volume of traffic, it'll just piss off a lot of people for not a lot of revenue in the grand scheme of things. Just doing the math on peak hour, it would only generate 70¢ per car assuming 20¢/km toll rate. Even if the Allen is packed both ways, that's still only $4200 per hour during peak hour.
 
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