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Transit City Plan

Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%
  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%

  • Total voters
    120
I prefer when I want to use public transit to go underground, unimpeded ... and when I want to use my car I prefer not to be running in to LRTs and streetcars,” Mr. Harper said after a ground-breaking ceremony for a pedestrian tunnel connecting Toronto’s island airport to the mainland.

When I'm driving I prefer to have LRT in it's own lane beside me than to get stuck behind buses when they stop to pick up passengers.
 
How about a special Sheppard subway user surcharge to bring the per passenger subsidy on that line to the system average? You love your subways now eh?
 
That said, the reason I'm against putting Sheppard East underground is because it doesn't make planning sense. While we can afford to put the line underground, the extra expense to do so would simply be gravy. Use high floor platforms like Calgary has through its downtown, implement dual-mode metro cars which switch from third rail to overhead wires at Consumers station, railway crossing arms, and voila. A continuous Sheppard metro on the surface which would be just as fast as it is underground (not to mention the time saved from not having to navigate a large station), all for a fraction of the cost!

Would the dual-mode cars be able to fit through the tunnels? They still probably need more headroom than subway.
 
Would the dual-mode cars be able to fit through the tunnels? They still probably need more headroom than subway.

Don't think it would be a problem. The pantograph would come down as the train connects to the third rail. As for train size, Boston's Blue line uses dual mode cars and I don't think they are much bigger than our trains.
 
There's none left after the federal government announced a few months ago that they are paying 100% ($5 billion) of the cost of replacing an expressway bridge in Montreal.

Unbelievable. How many conservatives did Montreal elect vs Toronto?
 
Quite correct but it needs ro be repeated.
For all the endless bickering, Toronto's refusal to acknowledge it's own responsibilites of having to contribute some it's own money to it's transit infrastructure is at the heart of Toronto's transit woes. In a word, Toronto wants something for nothing.
Despite how Torontonians like to think of themselves as enviornmentally conscious and transit friendly nothing could be further from the truth. Toronto wants to be both those things but only if someone else is willing to pay all the bills. Despite Toronto's sense of superiority over such sprawling cities like L.A., Dallas, Charlotte, or even Seattle, those cities VOTED for tax increases to help shape the future sustainability and liveability of urban enviornment. The idea of putting your money where your mouth is is heresy in Toronto.................we so want to be a great city that we are willing to give you the honour of having to pay for it.
It's so very convient to blame Queen's Park or Ottawa for the sad state of transportation in your city but when push comes to shove Toronto itself can take most of the blame.
Toronto is constantly looking for others to blame for it's current situation but refuses to look in the mirror.


I think what you've said has been repeated umpteen times in multiple threads already.

AoD
 
How about a special Sheppard subway user surcharge to bring the per passenger subsidy on that line to the system average? You love your subways now eh?

Or how about a Scarborough-specific property tax increase to help pay for the subways they want? If they want them, pay for them.

Heck, you can even hold a referendum in Scarborough. You can either go with LRT and have your property taxes stay the same as they are now, or you can go with subways and get a big increase.

If Scarberians are willing to pay for it, I say go for it. But at least then nobody can complain that they didn't get a say, and that they're "stuck with LRTs". The property tax increase would go to paying the difference between the LRT option and the subway option. For B-D to STC, it would only need to raise a couple hundred million, something very doable with a moderate tax increase. For things like Eglinton and Sheppard, it would require a much higher tax increase.
 
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PM Harper might not have a lot of intelligence on municipal issues but to call him an idiot and to lump him into the same category as George W Bush is silly

He does not have a lot of intelligence on federal politics too. What I mean is his decisions and actions are based on an ideology which ignores credible sources of information on issues. In this case I'm defining intelligence as pragmatic use of information to make policy that benefits average Canadians, and not as political use of information to maintain power.
In addition, he has demonstrated a continued disregard for the Canada system. (You can argue about whether or not this makes him unintelligent or intelligent, but what really matters is if it is ethical and just to the Canadian people) I believe it is not.

Anyways bake to transit debates. ^^

Anyways I don't think this is the place to get into this much more so lets talk more about transit. ^^
 
Just doing the math here on my previous post, and Scarborough is 23% of Toronto's population in 2006. Since property tax revenues by borough aren't readily available (or at least I couldn't find them, if anyone can I can refine my estimate), it can be assumed that Scarborough accounts for 23% of the City's property tax revenue, or somewhere in that range.

This means that Scarborough contributes $836,447,482 of the $3,630,021,745 in property taxes in the 2012 budget (http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/bu/bgrd/backgroundfile-43962.pdf).

It can reasonably be assumed that Scarborough would need an extra $8 billion in tax revenue over the next decade to pay for the subways ($2 billion for Eglinton, $5.5 billion for Sheppard, $0.5 billion for the B-D extension to STC). This means an extra $800 million a year, which is almost the same as what Scarborough pays in property taxes every year.

If you try a longer timeframe, say 20 years, it still requires $400,000,000 per year to pay for it.

If you remove Sheppard, and just concentrate on Eglinton and B-D, it would be $250,000,000 per year, or an increase of 29.89% over the current tax rate. I don't have the data for number of tax contributors by type, so I can't calculate exactly what that would mean in terms of a property tax increase per household.

So needless to say, if Scarborough wants to pay for subways, it wouldn't be cheap. But if it's something that they collectively vote for, who can say no?
 
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Run stints out of town Toronto! Toronto deserves subways

How would this get us subways?

The problem is a severe lack of funds to both build and operate the subway. Ford has been cutting the operations budget (which makes that second part even harder).
 
Just doing the math here on my previous post, and Scarborough is 23% of Toronto's population in 2006. Since property tax revenues by borough aren't readily available (or at least I couldn't find them, if anyone can I can refine my estimate), it can be assumed that Scarborough accounts for 23% of the City's property tax revenue, or somewhere in that range.

This means that Scarborough contributes $836,447,482 of the $3,630,021,745 in property taxes in the 2012 budget (http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2012/bu/bgrd/backgroundfile-43962.pdf).

It can reasonably be assumed that Scarborough would need an extra $8 billion in tax revenue over the next decade to pay for the subways ($2 billion for Eglinton, $5.5 billion for Sheppard, $0.5 billion for the B-D extension to STC). This means an extra $800 million a year, which is almost the same as what Scarborough pays in property taxes every year.

If you try a longer timeframe, say 20 years, it still requires $400,000,000 per year to pay for it.

If you remove Sheppard, and just concentrate on Eglinton and B-D, it would be $250,000,000 per year, or an increase of 29.89% over the current tax rate. I don't have the data for number of tax contributors by type, so I can't calculate exactly what that would mean in terms of a property tax increase per household.

So needless to say, if Scarborough wants to pay for subways, it wouldn't be cheap. But if it's something that they collectively vote for, who can say no?

What about residents from other Boroughs that work in Scarborough. They get all the benefits without paying?

I believe the estimate for the 5km extension of the B-D to STC is well over a Billion (probably closer to 2). (I wish subway construction was $100M/km as you indicate). Your Sheppard cost is significantly inflated or includes about 6km in North York - almost the same as will be in Scarborough.
 
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I did this for someone and it was very quickly done, but it shows what each taxpayer is going to have to paid for subways yearly.

If people want all these white elephants subways for the next 50 years or so, before or if they meet the standards for one in the first place, lets look at what is wanted or needed as well the cost of them.

Sheppard line to STC $4b to build and $20m/yr in operation lost.
Sheppard Line to Downsview $2.5B to built and $3m/yr in operation lost.
Sheppard Y interchange with the Spadina line, $800-$1b
BD line to STC $2B with operation cost been recovery 100% if not more.
Yonge Line to RHC as plan, $6B with another possibility of $1-$2b for extra trackage to get to an area for a new yard. Operation cost recovery up to Steeles with a lost about $5-$10m/yr north of it to RHC.
BD line to Sherway and then to Dixie Rd in Mississauga, $5B with a lost of $8m/yr.
To take the BD line from Dixie to Sq One Centre in Mississauga $6B including a yard and a lost of $8m/yr
To build the DRL as a U to Sheppard along Queen St $12B with a lost of $5-$10m/yr, but will see full recovery within 10 years of operation.
To Built the Finch line $8-$10B with a small yard and will see a lost at about $5m/yr.

The total is about $59B with a lost of about $63m/yr in operation cost.

If there is 2m households and spreading the cost of building over 30 years, it works out to be $984/yr plus the interest to borrow the money. To cover the operation cost lost, that another $32/yr.

What is still needed to be added to this cost is the rolling stock, labour and upkeep.

Therefore, I would say if some of the 905 is picking up the cost of the lines in their area, the 416/Toronto residents are looking at a tax bill about $1,000/yr for the rest of their lives.

That's no small tax.

If you drive into Toronto regardless if you are a Toronto resident, $5. If you go to the core it will be $10. No fee if you are bypassing the city using the 427, 401, 407 and the 400.

Doing this, you would generate about $1m to the core and about the same for rest of the city for a tune of $2m/day. You could generate close to $350m a year doing this.

What evil is the best one?
 
Your calculations show that if Scarborough residents want a subway to Scarborough Town Centre, the best option is to extend the Bloor line there instead of the Sheppard. If we had the proper funding, that should have been done.
 

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