Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

And finally, when Giambrone mentioned 10-12 billion, it is not clear what length of DRL he had in mind; but if he meant the 10-km downtown - Eglinton East segment, that would translate to $1000 - 1200 million per km. Does not that sound outlandish ...
It does sound outlandish ... and though it would be clear that tunelling through downtown is going to cost more than the $350-million or so per kilometre it takes in suburbia, I can't seeing it costing that much on average.

Therefore he clearly wasn't just talking about a 10-km segment. Why would it even cross one's mind that he was?
 
Don't forget, even Montreal also has much greater coverage in the downtown area compared to Toronto.
I'd argue that the leg of the Montreal Orange Line and Green Line through downtown are quite similiar in extent and number of stations as the Yonge and University legs of the YUS. I'd also argue that the streetcar and bus service TTC provides downtown is much more extensive and frequent than what STM provides.

I might, barely agree that the Montreal coverage is greater ... but not much greater.
 
What the hell?!! $10 billion for the DRL up to Eglinton? Maybe $10 Billion from Finch to Dundas West, or even Jane. Now, I'm totally assured of Giambrone's complete incompetence in transit.

Just curious if you thought about what you'd actually run on your less than $10 billion line? Even assuming the estimation of $300 million/km is accurate (already suggested by others that it isn't and certain station costs will be significant), you've also got to drop some cash on trains to run on your new line.

Then you've also got to find a place to store them and do maintenance. If you read the current Subway Yards Needs Study, you'll see that even without the DRL, the new trains that are currently being purchased will require additional yard space.

Buying a bunch more trains to fill the DRL will leave you needing even more yard space, either significantly expanding existing ones (basically limited to Wilson if you read the Needs Study) or constructing an entirely new one.

What do those requirements do to your cost estimate for a functioning DRL? Getting close to $10 billion (an educated estimate basically made off the cuff in a short-notice interview)?

While I am no transit expert, I wouldn't be so quick to throw around terms like 'incompetent' if you yourself have missed such basic additional costs of a new subway line.
 
Just curious if you thought about what you'd actually run on your less than $10 billion line? Even assuming the estimation of $300 million/km is accurate (already suggested by others that it isn't and certain station costs will be significant), you've also got to drop some cash on trains to run on your new line.
While the downtown section could very well be up at the TTC's ridiculous cost of $360 million/km, the Don Mills section definitely isn't. The entire section from Overlea to up past York Mills could be built in a raised guideway along the centre of the street, giving huge cost savings. I calculated the costs solely on $350 million/km through downtown (Spadina to Parliment,) $300 million/km across the rail corridor and up to Overlea, and $200 million/km from Overlea to the 401. After that, I went back to $300 million/km up to Seneca College, assuming they want the subway to be tunneled in that section. The total I came up with was well under $7 billion, from Spadina to Finch. And remember, Giambrone was talking about $10-12 billion for the Spadina-Eglinton portion only.

Trains to run on the line could easily come off old trains from the YUS or whatever. A yard might be necessary, but some new yards or yard improvements are needed anyways.

What do those requirements do to your cost estimate for a functioning DRL? Getting close to $10 billion (an educated estimate basically made off the cuff in a short-notice interview)?
Well for a route from Spadina-Eglinton, even needing to purchase new trains (mind you we already have trains,) and expanding the Wilson yard (there's tonnes of room that basically can't be developed,) I'd put it at under $5 billion, easy. And that's off the top of my head.

While I am no transit expert, I wouldn't be so quick to throw around terms like 'incompetent' if you yourself have missed such basic additional costs of a new subway line.
Unless you think that new trains and a new yard can cost $6 billion dollars, I think that calling Giambrone incompetent based on his ridiculous estimate is quite fitting. Of course, perhaps he doesn't actually think that, but was just pouncing on an opportunity to call subways big money-sucking monsters. In that case, he's worse than incompetent; he's very, very irresponsible.
 
It is very apparent what ploy Adam Giambrone is up to... scaremongering. Throw out an impossibly high figure, speak from authority, and watch as the terrorified ignorant masses fall in line behind your equally expensive (but "distributive") LRT scheme.
 
Why are you all overthinking this so much? It was an off-the comment answer on how much a new line of similiar length to our other 2 major lines would cost.
 
^ Just the fact alone that it was an off-comment proves my point. He's only out to promote LRT even if that means discrediting desperately needed subway expansions via throwing out ridiculously high and untested hypothetical cost projections.

I'd argue that the leg of the Montreal Orange Line and Green Line through downtown are quite similiar in extent and number of stations as the Yonge and University legs of the YUS. I'd also argue that the streetcar and bus service TTC provides downtown is much more extensive and frequent than what STM provides.

I might, barely agree that the Montreal coverage is greater ... but not much greater.

Frequencies aside Montreal's network offers a lot more coverage. There are major nodes in that city that are within walking distance of 2-3 subway stops. In fact, most of the built up area (Centre Ville) is bordered on all four sides by the subway (Rue Berri, Rue Sherbrooke, Saint Antoine and Atwater). Compare this 10km x 2km coverage area to downtown Toronto's YUS loop coverage of 3km x 1km. So that only leaves unreliable and less frequent streetcars and buses to do the task that should really be carried out by the subway system. For getting around and about downtown Montreal, surface transit is much less important.
 
Just the fact alone that it was an off-comment proves my point. He's only out to promote LRT even if that means discrediting desperately needed subway expansions via throwing out ridiculously high and untested hypothetical cost projections.
What an ignorant comment! How do you know what is in his head.

Giambone was the first one within TTC to raise the possibility of the DRL, when he commented on it being a necessity after 2018.

He has also been pushing ahead with the Spadina extension, has had the TTC working on the Yonge extension, and is behind the new subway under Eglinton, which is the biggest subway project in this city since they started the Bloor-Danforth almost a half-century ago!

Are you some kind of shill for someone who might run against him?

If you want to attack him, you need to have some basis in truth ... or you sound like some kind of absurd politician. How can we ever take anything you say seriously about Toront transit when so much of what you say is so wrong, and so easy to prove as wrong.

Frequencies aside Montreal's network offers a lot more coverage.
Coverage is no good, if buses run on a 40-minute frequency.

There are major nodes in that city that are within walking distance of 2-3 subway stops.
There are major nodes in this city that are within walking distance of 2-3 subway stops.

In fact, most of the built up area (Centre Ville) is bordered on all four sides by the subway (Rue Berri, Rue Sherbrooke, Saint Antoine and Atwater).
There is no subway on Sherbrooke west of Berri. Much of our downtown is bordered by subway on 4 sides, or just on the outer edge.

Compare this 10km x 2km coverage area to downtown Toronto's YUS loop coverage of 3km x 1km.
I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers; I'm measuring about 600 metres for the width of Toronto between University and Yonge; and 700 metres for Montreal between De Maisoneuve and Viger. And I have no idea where you get 10 km; Atwater to Berri is 3.5 km, compared to 2.7 km from Bloor to Front. Both cities have 14 stations within the area. As I noted, Montreal's coverage is a bit better. But not the "much" that you stated.

This is part of the problem with your posts. You use untrue facts (some would call these lies; I'll be more charitable) to support your position.

So that only leaves unreliable and less frequent streetcars and buses to do the task that should really be carried out by the subway system. For getting around and about downtown Montreal, surface transit is much less important.
I'd disagree with you when I'm visiting the Montreal General, or even the Marche Bonsecours, which is ironically sitting near an emergency exit to the Metro.
 
I doubt that an entirely new yard is needed for the first phase of the DLR.

For the Union (or Spadina)-Pape phase of the DLR, my (rough off the cuff) estimate of the number of peak trains needed for this line is somewhere around 12-15 plus spares. There is nowhere to put a yard along this line (unless they build one in the Portlands, but since this is supposed to be redeveloped this seems unlikely) so the DLR would pretty much have to use Greenwood for train storage and maintenance, and possibly extended tail tracks at the ends of the line for train storage. To free up extra space for train storage on the B-D, it would probably be sufficient to (a) reactivate Vincent Yard (b) build a short extension of the tail tracks at Kipling to the west for the purpose of train storage.

For any extension to Eglinton, a new yard would probably be necessary, and could be built in one the industrial areas around Don Mills/Eglinton. An alternative, especially likely if the DLR west to Dundas West is built before the DLR to Eglinton, is to use Greenwood primarily for the DLR, and build a new yard at the west end of B-D (possibly as part of an westward extension).
 
I'd argue that the leg of the Montreal Orange Line and Green Line through downtown are quite similiar in extent and number of stations as the Yonge and University legs of the YUS. I'd also argue that the streetcar and bus service TTC provides downtown is much more extensive and frequent than what STM provides.

I might, barely agree that the Montreal coverage is greater ... but not much greater.

We have 18 stations and 7 LRT routes running through our downtown, how many station are located in Montreal's downtown?
 
It's not the movement for subways that died but responsible governance. I get tired of people making money the issue. The cost of public infrastructure is an investment and we need to stop funding 'luxuries' when basic essentials are needed: why are we building bike lanes when we need more transit (sorry to pick on bike lanes, it's just the example of skewed prioritization that comes immediately to mind). We need to hold politicians accountable who given the choice are almost always going to direct funding to the demands of interest groups and pressure groups who repay them with votes rather than spending responsibly in the interest of the larger, and unfortunately apathetic, public.

Well, I don't disagree with your concept; however, bike lanes are really bad example. Their cost is peanuts compared to LRT or BRT, not even mentioning subways. And you can count them as investments, too - both a cardio-vascular tool, and something that reduces the risk of car - bike collisions and public medical costs caused by such collisions.
 
While the downtown section could very well be up at the TTC's ridiculous cost of $360 million/km, the Don Mills section definitely isn't. The entire section from Overlea to up past York Mills could be built in a raised guideway along the centre of the street, giving huge cost savings. I calculated the costs solely on $350 million/km through downtown (Spadina to Parliment,) $300 million/km across the rail corridor and up to Overlea, and $200 million/km from Overlea to the 401. After that, I went back to $300 million/km up to Seneca College, assuming they want the subway to be tunneled in that section. The total I came up with was well under $7 billion, from Spadina to Finch. And remember, Giambrone was talking about $10-12 billion for the Spadina-Eglinton portion only.

While others have still pointed out your estimates may not be entirely realistic, I'll limit my comments to pointing out Torontonians are unlikely to like the idea of a raised subway, even up Don Mills, and you've also not accounted for the cost of getting across the Don Valley. It's not likely to be cheap (whether you build a new span or try and piggy back on the Leaside bridge).

Trains to run on the line could easily come off old trains from the YUS or whatever. A yard might be necessary, but some new yards or yard improvements are needed anyways.

Why do people throw around terms like "could easily..."? Maybe the more appropriate question is why everyone who has the answer to all the world's problems is driving a cab or cutting hair?

Have a read through the rail yard needs study at http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...mber_17_2009/Reports/Yonge_University_Spa.pdf

You might get the idea from it that it is not just 'easy' to throw off old trains on to the DRL and that it is also not 'easy' to get new yard capacity.

Well for a route from Spadina-Eglinton, even needing to purchase new trains (mind you we already have trains,) and expanding the Wilson yard (there's tonnes of room that basically can't be developed,) I'd put it at under $5 billion, easy. And that's off the top of my head.

According to the needs study, it is not a simply matter to expand Wilson and even then, that is just struggling to meet the capacity needs of the YUS with the Richmond Hill extension. Nothing about needs for DRL trains. Other than Wilson, existing yards would already be at capacity with the addition of the new TR trains.

Unless you think that new trains and a new yard can cost $6 billion dollars, I think that calling Giambrone incompetent based on his ridiculous estimate is quite fitting.

I don't know how much new trains and a new yard would cost. All I know is that you haven't budgeted for them and now seem to be grossly underestimating their cost when you throw around terms like "easily could...". You also haven't accounted for the cost of bridging the Don Valley. It would not surprise me if full and final costs would be a lot closer to the estimate of someone in the know than someone who missed including several key items in their budget.
 
Only Spadina and Waterfront West routes count as "LRT", and even those two - with reservations.

Streetcars are LRT... Their capacity is significantly higher than that of a bus and it is a light rail vehicle, this fact will be more clear once the new larger vehicles are in operation.
 
Streetcars are LRT... Their capacity is significantly higher than that of a bus and it is a rail vehicle, this fact will be more clear once the new larger vehicles are in operation.
Then they're streetcars. Apart from having a higher capacity than busses, they're the exact same. No better speed, no better reliability. In fact, they have worse reliability because they're on rails.
 

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