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Pauline Marois, the Québec citizenship law project and reasonable accommodations

About the National Post paper, I have two things to say.

First, comparing Parizeau as well as the majority of "separatists" to Le Pen is fucked up. Le Pen is a crazy racist motherfucker. Being compared to that scum is really offensive. That editorialist should read La censure pour l'échafaud.

However this quote makes sense to me :

Left-wing political trends aside, there are other reasons to have expected that Quebec would be the first part of Canada to decisively challenge multiculturalism, a doctrine that tends to thrive in wealthy nations beset by weak identities and postcolonial guilt. Compared to anglo-Canada, Quebec has a relatively strong sense of collective self.

Weak identity + postcolonial guilt = multiculturalism

Really makes sense to me.

But we don't fear to have an identity in Québec. We know it's not wrong to be a nationalist.

But your background makes you think stong identity and nationalism are evil. That's why we don't agree.
 
Not superior per se. But I am loyal to the country in which I originate and live. If people from abroad choose Québec as their new country, they must become loyal to Québec. That's just obvious. If they don't want to be loyal to Québec, they shouldn't come here in the first place. What country would want citizens who are loyal to some other place, but not to the land they inhabit.

They are coming to Canada. Quebec is not a country. Get over it.

If you find this ominous, you're paranoiac.

I said that it sounds ominous. Besides, you're the one going on endlessly about feeling threatened by people different than you. By your own admission, you feel menaced by them. Now that sound paranoid.

I fear badly administered immigration, not strangers. And Québec's culture is menaced, not weakened. You want a weakened culture ? Look in your own backyard.

We're doing quite fine here, thanks. As for a weakened culture, hardly. It's a different culture than the one you wish to espouse. It's not founded upon desires for exclusion or purity. It is alive and changing. People are more aware of things; it makes for a perspective that is more outward looking.

Now please stop waving that ethnic cleansing scarecrow.

Stop waiving the demands for purification or expulsion. People are not coming here to menace you or your culture. It is your responses that have air of menace to them. Fearful people have been known to do desperate things. Wanting to toss out the Charter strikes me as desperate.
 
About the National Post paper, I have two things to say.

First, comparing Parizeau as well as the majority of "separatists" to Le Pen is fucked up. Le Pen is a crazy racist motherfucker. Being compared to that scum is really offensive. That editorialist should read La censure pour l'échafaud.

Ah, but notice the other (and more pertinent?) example mentioned: Pim Fortuyn...a little more complicated...

Weak identity + postcolonial guilt = multiculturalism

Really makes sense to me.

But we don't fear to have an identity in Québec. We know it's not wrong to be a nationalist.

But your background makes you think stong identity and nationalism are evil. That's why we don't agree.

Substitute "Netherlands" for "Québec", and you get Pim Fortuyn, and you understand why so-called "weak identity" can in fact be preferrable...
 
Not superior per se. But I am loyal to the country in which I originate and live. If people from abroad choose Québec as their new country, they must become loyal to Québec. That's just obvious. If they don't want to be loyal to Québec, they shouldn't come here in the first place. What country would want citizens who are loyal to some other place, but not to the land they inhabit.


Quebec is not a country. You even made that evident yourself when you said immigrants go there and are surprised they need to know French.


I fear badly administered immigration, not strangers. And Québec's culture is menaced, not weakened. You want a weakened culture ? Look in your own backyard.

Too bad we see it the opposite way. We see ourselves are much more enriched than the isolationist policies of Quebec.


Look, I'm that history made alive. I am a pure synthetic product of that history. Name any of the traditional communities that have inhabited Montréal : I have ancestors belonging to those communities. I have both the old and the new melted into myself.

Now please stop waving that ethnic cleansing scarecrow.

And other people have their own melded identities from their own cultures and from Canada. What makes you version of "melding" the correct one? Pure bigotry here.

Sure, I speak a vile, corrupted version of French. Old and used prejudice. Heard it a million times. My grand-father, all those years ago, used to hear the same thing from (who else than) torontonians (he used to inhabit the Queen City). One of his colleagues told him once : "I can't speak french with you, 'cause I learned parisian french." So he brought a good friend of his, who happened to be a girl from Paris, to make it obvious that the language spoken in Paris is the same as the one spoken in Montréal. But then the stupid bloke finds nothing smarter to say than : "You corrupted her with your dialect". Riiiiight.

As for the english and american influences, they're obvious. We've had other influences as well. But we have synthetised our different influences to make something new and original. You know, synthesis ? The thing that multiculturalists don't do ?

Yours is a heavily filtered synthesis, less natural and much more forced upon. An "anglican" example would be rednecks patrolling the US/MExican border.


Please re-read that sentence. Policies are linked to policies...

Should read policies are linked to politics.

Of course. Policies are, for example, to protect french. Agenda is to make Québec an independant country. And ?
Protect french from what? The invading immigrants?

There is a contradiction there only if you think in a manichean way, like a programmed robot. People can learn languages without forgetting who they are. People can learn languages without loosing their culture. I have learned english, haven't I ? Am I less Québécois for that ? Come on !

I'm pretty sure some of your neighbors would think you are. Likewise even you admitted earlier to a preferance to a two tier citizenship.


Of course. We're offering a new place to live. If they like it and take it, we expect respect and loyalty. If they fill those conditions, we can be friends.

The fact is that immigrants do come.
Besides, it's not the number that matters most to me, but quality.

"Coming" is not the same as "staying". Quebec bleeds immigrants. A large percentage of those who go to Quebec leave.

Gosh, that's an open minded attitude, now, isn't it ? I don't need to learn the language of my new country, so why learn it, right ? Please don't tell me immigrants should be lauded for refusing to learn the language of their new country. That's called : a total lack of respect.

Same could be said for English in Quebec. Many refuse to learn it and are lauded for it. Double standards. Besides the Immigration points system makes it so a skilled immigrant pretty much needs to know English and/or French. Only exceptions are mostly refugees or illegals. Most illegals probably won't stay in Quebec so that leaves refugees. What happened to that so called Quebec social justice if you start refusing refugees?


That's not the vewpoint of Québec's Ministry of Immigration. The official point of immigration is to get new workers or new money. The unofficial point is to get new friends. If the family wants or needs to come, why not. More friends.
Please, you have no idea what your talking about here. Getting new workers means getting more immigrants. Getting more immigrants means getting more outside cultural influences. Getting more cultural influences means, as you would put it "a weakening of Quebec culture"


"Impossible to live there". You exagerate so much, your caricature has lost all credibility and makes nobody laugh. They *do* live here. But you can't expect a normal life if you can't communicate with the majority of people. It's an obvious handicap.

If you really believe the delusion that if Quebec were to seperate from Canada that immigrants would want to live there with the French protection racket in charge the only caricature is the one you see in the mirror. You really are a fool.


Assimilation is delimited by national borders.

Once again wrong. Cultural influences define borders not arbitrary lines drawn on a map. See why Canada and US politics are not defined by North and South but by East and West. Ontarians have values closer to New Yorkers than they do with Quebec or Manitoba.


You missed what I meant. You seemed to think that after independance, Québecois would instantly stop learning english (or any other language for that matter) and hermetically isolate themselves from the rest of the world. You may know immigration, but you obviously don't read me correctly and know nothing of the sovereignist ideal.

And your not reading everyone else correctly. Your stuck in your little corner of the world with disregard to everything else. READ: IF QUEBEC WERE TO SEPERATE FROM CANADA, FRENCH WOULD AND PROTECTIONIST IMMIGRATION POLICY WOULD MAKE IT UNDESIRABLE FOR SKILLED IMMIGRANT WORKERS. MOST DO NOT KNOW FRENCH BUT ENGLISH. YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD IN ATTRACTING THESE IMMIGRANTS. RIGHT NOW PEOPLE CAN SETTLE IN QUEBEC BECAUSE IT IS PART OF CANADA. RIGHT OF MOVEMENT (TO CITIZENS AND PERMANENT RESIDENTS) IS GUARANTEED BY THE CHARTER.
IF THEY DON'T LIKE QUEBEC THEY ARE FREE TO MOVE ELSEWHERE IN CANADA.

If Quebec seperated, that would no longer be the case.

Leaders who can't speak the language of the people they lead ? You must be kidding right ? Sounds a lot like compradors to me. You know, the name they give in Latin America to locals who have turned against their own to prefer the financial benefits of collaborating with a foreign colonizer (whom I need not name). You know, those overly rich bastards who can speak better english than spanish and spit on their people, and sleep in mansion while their brothers live in *dumps* and sleep in the dirt.

They speak the language, but many would be called English as their first language. Many are York U grads. It's the way it is. You know why? Globalization, money. You still don't get it, your scope is just too small to realize reality vs. ideology.


There are other examples. Queen Rania of Jordan for example, who can speak better english than arabic. The most horrible example in history must be the kapos, in nazi concentration camps.

This kind of people have had many names in history. I usually call them traitors.

I don't need to become a traitor to open to others and do business. I have principles and am loyal to my people.

Traitors *whistles*, what do you think English Canada would consider a seperated Quebec? Do you think a seperated Quebec would maintain the same relationship as you would enjoy as part of Canada?

A seperated Quebec would create a huge backlash across Canada. You would be considered "traitors" and by popular opinion would be isolated by voting patterns from Canada.

The US (or rather US companies) would fear uncertain economic reprecussions and would pull out of Quebec. You'd lose a lot of businesses in Quebec and in turn leads to loss of jobs. This would be one huge spiral downward for a very long time. Quebec lacks the population on it's own to become a viable economic interest. Just to use the example of video games. Many games are not released in Quebec because of language laws. It's just not economic to release a lot of products. Billigualism costs companies money.

Many companies would not release products in Quebec if Quebec seperated. Less competition equals higher prices. Less jobs + higher prices = poverty. Poverty discourages immigration.

Yet different languages, if your selling to other countries can make money. But you also have to learn about different cultures and accept them if you want to penetrate those markets. Oh, wait, learning and accepting different cultures? That's what you want to "protect" yourself from in the first place!
 
Alright, here I go posting other people's articles. Others did it before me in this very thread, though. Hopefully it'll be some good food for thoughts. (original french version here)

The xenophobic vice is tightening

Jean-François Lisée
La Presse
November 2nd 2007
Translated by me.

The author is executive director of the international research and studies Center at the University of Montreal (cerium.ca). He will publish, in mid-Novemberm a book on identity questions, titled Us, published by Boréal editors.

“Racist”, “xenophobe”, “shame”, “detrimental to Québec's reputation”, the proposal according to which the million new immigrants which will be welcomed in Quebec in the next 20 years (do the maths: 55.000/years X 20) muat know the language of the majority and adhere to common values to become full Québécois citizens caused in Canada-English, at B' Nai Brith, in the Suburban and in The Gazette, reactions which make their author's fear of aneurysmal ruptures. Saturday, in a chronicle of a remarkable intellectual quality, Mrs. Lysiane Gagnon connected the linguistic requirement with the Nazi practice of forcing the Jews to carry a star of David (Mrs Gagnon's article can be read here)

Tuesday, Mr. Charest asked an extremely relevant question: “Would Rene Lévesque, who was a great democrat, have accepted a bill which proposes to establish two classes of citizens? ” Ah, he would most certainly have. He proposed and voted a law which prohibited all new immigrants, including those coming from English Canada, from sending their children to English schools. He defended it with energy. And it is with ardour that English-Canada, the B' Nai Brith, the Suburban and The Gazette accused him of being a racist and a xenophobe, and caricatured him as a Nazi. With, at the time, in the role of Mrs. Gagnon, Mordecai Richler accusing Rene Lévesque to have struck up a Nazi song the evening of his electoral victory. A well-known Maclean's chronicler even depicted him as a monkey.

Ladies, gentlemen, dear Prime Minister, the history does not only stutter. The situation is quite worse today than you may think. Xenophobia comes out from everywhere. Consider this authetic quotation from a kown national leader: “We should share a common language. Equal opportunities for all require that each an every one of us can communicate in this language. It is a question of both cohesion and justice to make it a condition for citizenship to become acquainted with this language. Moreover, for those who want to obtain permanent residence, we will lay down a rule wanting that they pass a linguistic test before granting them a residence permit.”

About which retrograde language is this about ? English. Of which country having undoubtedly sunk in the torments of national-socialism are we speaking ? The United Kingdom. At which antediluvian epoq was this speech written ? Last December. Which follower of Goebbels wrote it ? Tony Blair, in one of his last speeches, entitled - hold on tight - the duty to integrate.

The United Kingdom, like Quebec, currently lives an identity crisis. Religious questions, especially related to the growth of the Muslim population, the need for establishing common values, and the need for re-examining reasonnable accomodations, are at the heart of the debate. Tony Blair answered it with a renewed will to establish that no “culture or religion is more important than our duty to belong to a common United Kingdom”. He even proposes to seriously restrict the right to carry the burqa, even in the practice of professions.

“It is common sense” he affirms, without laughing. To a series of measure aiming at integration and the renewed respect of common values, he added the need for newcomers to speak the language of the nation, not only to become citizens - thus to have right to vote and be elected - but also to have the simple right to be resident.

Without shame, Blair thus created two classes of citizens. European citizens who come from the remainder of the European Union but who do not speak English, who would thus be hardly repressed in their most fundamental rights, and those who would be forced by this shivery and retrograde policy to show their skills in the language of their dominators. I shudder to think what kind of hard punishment right-defenders have in reserve for Tony Blair. Banishment? Life imprisonment? Sending of the Blue helmets? Obligation to read the complete works of Mrs. Gagnon? No such thing. According to the last news, he is the favorite candidate to become, next January and for two years, the first president of the European Union council, elected by the heads of government of all Europe. From this key position, he will be able to extend his xenophobic plans to all of Europe. The evil is already rooted there. News coming from France, the Netherlands, Flanders and, obviously, Germany, are bad : they all walk into Blair's steps, all enforcing this perfidious obligation to know the language of the place to vote, be elected, and even work.

But how did Blair do it ? Which magic potion did he drink to be left unscathed after uttering such insanities, after making such infamies ? Which extraordinary shield protects him ? Wait. I think I know. He is not a Québécois sovereignist.
 
Alright, here I go posting other people's articles. Others did it before me in this very thread, though. Hopefully it'll be some good food for thoughts. (original french version here)

The xenophobic vice is tightening

Jean-François Lisée
La Presse
November 2nd 2007
Translated by me.

The author is executive director of the international research and studies Center at the University of Montreal (cerium.ca). He will publish, in mid-Novemberm a book on identity questions, titled Us, published by Boréal editors.

“Racist”, “xenophobe”, “shame”, “detrimental to Québec's reputation”, the proposal according to which the million new immigrants which will be welcomed in Quebec in the next 20 years (do the maths: 55.000/years X 20) muat know the language of the majority and adhere to common values to become full Québécois citizens caused in Canada-English, at B' Nai Brith, in the Suburban and in The Gazette, reactions which make their author's fear of aneurysmal ruptures. Saturday, in a chronicle of a remarkable intellectual quality, Mrs. Lysiane Gagnon connected the linguistic requirement with the Nazi practice of forcing the Jews to carry a star of David (Mrs Gagnon's article can be read here)

Tuesday, Mr. Charest asked an extremely relevant question: “Would Rene Lévesque, who was a great democrat, have accepted a bill which proposes to establish two classes of citizens? ” Ah, he would most certainly have. He proposed and voted a law which prohibited all new immigrants, including those coming from English Canada, from sending their children to English schools. He defended it with energy. And it is with ardour that English-Canada, the B' Nai Brith, the Suburban and The Gazette accused him of being a racist and a xenophobe, and caricatured him as a Nazi. With, at the time, in the role of Mrs. Gagnon, Mordecai Richler accusing Rene Lévesque to have struck up a Nazi song the evening of his electoral victory. A well-known Maclean's chronicler even depicted him as a monkey.

Ladies, gentlemen, dear Prime Minister, the history does not only stutter. The situation is quite worse today than you may think. Xenophobia comes out from everywhere. Consider this authetic quotation from a kown national leader: “We should share a common language. Equal opportunities for all require that each an every one of us can communicate in this language. It is a question of both cohesion and justice to make it a condition for citizenship to become acquainted with this language. Moreover, for those who want to obtain permanent residence, we will lay down a rule wanting that they pass a linguistic test before granting them a residence permit.”

About which retrograde language is this about ? English. Of which country having undoubtedly sunk in the torments of national-socialism are we speaking ? The United Kingdom. At which antediluvian epoq was this speech written ? Last December. Which follower of Goebbels wrote it ? Tony Blair, in one of his last speeches, entitled - hold on tight - the duty to integrate.

The United Kingdom, like Quebec, currently lives an identity crisis. Religious questions, especially related to the growth of the Muslim population, the need for establishing common values, and the need for re-examining reasonnable accomodations, are at the heart of the debate. Tony Blair answered it with a renewed will to establish that no “culture or religion is more important than our duty to belong to a common United Kingdom”. He even proposes to seriously restrict the right to carry the burqa, even in the practice of professions.

“It is common sense” he affirms, without laughing. To a series of measure aiming at integration and the renewed respect of common values, he added the need for newcomers to speak the language of the nation, not only to become citizens - thus to have right to vote and be elected - but also to have the simple right to be resident.

Without shame, Blair thus created two classes of citizens. European citizens who come from the remainder of the European Union but who do not speak English, who would thus be hardly repressed in their most fundamental rights, and those who would be forced by this shivery and retrograde policy to show their skills in the language of their dominators. I shudder to think what kind of hard punishment right-defenders have in reserve for Tony Blair. Banishment? Life imprisonment? Sending of the Blue helmets? Obligation to read the complete works of Mrs. Gagnon? No such thing. According to the last news, he is the favorite candidate to become, next January and for two years, the first president of the European Union council, elected by the heads of government of all Europe. From this key position, he will be able to extend his xenophobic plans to all of Europe. The evil is already rooted there. News coming from France, the Netherlands, Flanders and, obviously, Germany, are bad : they all walk into Blair's steps, all enforcing this perfidious obligation to know the language of the place to vote, be elected, and even work.

But how did Blair do it ? Which magic potion did he drink to be left unscathed after uttering such insanities, after making such infamies ? Which extraordinary shield protects him ? Wait. I think I know. He is not a Québécois sovereignist.


For someone who complains about my bad copy and pasting (due to the bad coding on from vBulletin in changing where a cursor is when copying and pasting) resulting in mistakes, I'll have to use my right to criticize a "professionally" published article that is rife with spelling mistakes easily corrected by a spell check.

Likewise the article fails to even once mention similar policies in France. The article is extreamly biased, hard-headed and appeals to the base. So your attacking "Anglican" Canada by saying Britain does it too? Another fallacy you continue to perpetuate is the continuation that Quebec is a soverign state/country which it isn't. You can't claim as your article put it; "no culture or religion is more important than our duty to belong to a common United Kingdom" when Quebec is not a soverign nation and is part of Canada.

This rhetoric can only be used if Quebec seperates from Canada and you use it to justify a new change in immigration policy. To equate what Blair said into the current situation, you'd have to substitute U.K. for Canada, not Quebec.

I'm not in any way justifying what Blair said but your "article" makes the same grave fallacy that a creationist would make in twisting science to support their own flawed cases.

To answer your last question, Blair did pay a price. He was more or less forcefully removed from being P.M. by his sagging popularity and his party is suffering from it.
 
of course quebec is a nation. are you going to tell me next that the grand canyon wasn't carved out by the flood in which noah built an ark?

:D
 
of course quebec is a nation. are you going to tell me next that the grand canyon wasn't carved out by the flood in which noah built an ark?

:D

Whao! Careful there Prom lest you be quoted out of context in order to support both creationalism and the fact that Quebec is a nation.

If however both are true and I didn't get the memo, why the heck are our tax dollars still flooding into Quebec and why hasn't Satan appeared to me and offered me a position as a general in the war against God?
 
Whao! Careful there Prom lest you be quoted out of context in order to support both creationalism and the fact that Quebec is a nation.

If however both are true and I didn't get the memo, why the heck are our tax dollars still flooding into Quebec and why hasn't Satan appeared to me and offered me a position as a general in the war against God?


the tax money is flooding quebec because money is evil and this is gods way of punishing quebec. DaimonAugustus has been ordered by god to collect 2 of every thing french and put it on his ark of ideology. the ark will sail over the money because those onboard would rather have their wallets bone dry than be swimming in canadian cash.

:D
 
As Quebec is part of Canada, it would appear that the article-writer supports the idea that English should be the common language for the entire country. The fact that some people in Quebec have refused, or neglected, to learn the language (and that some families have done so for generations) is shameful.

Yet no law has ever been written in the country to force the assimilation of Francophones. Canada has allowed Francophone institutions to exists for hundreds of years. In turn, restrictive language laws have been passed in Quebec, and xenophobes can now openly demand a "be like us, or get out" attitude towards immigrants.
 
For someone who complains about my bad copy and pasting (due to the bad coding on from vBulletin in changing where a cursor is when copying and pasting) resulting in mistakes, I'll have to use my right to criticize a "professionally" published article that is rife with spelling mistakes easily corrected by a spell check.

I took upon myself to translate an article by a prominent sovereignist in order to make it available for our discussion and to make sure that the National Post's or Globe and Mail's editorialists' point of view was not the only one to which you were exposed. So I made mistakes in my translation ? It is likely, even though I made efforts.

I'd be curious to see how you'd fare if you were to translate an entire article from English to French.

Likewise the article fails to even once mention similar policies in France.

The author of the article (Jean-François Lisée), already mentionned other examples in another article. Published here.

Also see this article for additionnal examples.

Oh wait. Can you read french ? Unfortunately, we can't expect ontarian newspapers to relay the informations presented there. Québec bashing is an old game the Globe and Mail and National Post enjoy most when the answer is silenced.

The article is extreamly biased, hard-headed and appeals to the base.

Like the Québec Bashing in your newspapers isn't biaised. It's an opinion article, and doesn't pretend to be perfectly objective.

But do you know what is the difference Québec Bashing and this article ? It's not bashing anyone.

Another fallacy you continue to perpetuate is the continuation that Quebec is a soverign state/country which it isn't.

This rhetoric can only be used if Quebec seperates from Canada and you use it to justify a new change in immigration policy. To equate what Blair said into the current situation, you'd have to substitute U.K. for Canada, not Quebec.

You seem to forget something. Sir John A. Macdonald wanted Canada to be a centralised legislation, but he failed. Sir Georges-Étienne Cartier made it a federation. Provinces have powers that are not of the federal governments business. The province of Québec is a State in its full right and is a member, not a creature, of the Canadian Federation.

of course quebec is a nation. are you going to tell me next that the grand canyon wasn't carved out by the flood in which noah built an ark?

We have been recognized as a nation by the House of Commons.

If however both are true and I didn't get the memo, why the heck are our tax dollars still flooding into Quebec and why hasn't Satan appeared to me and offered me a position as a general in the war against God?

the tax money is flooding quebec because money is evil and this is gods way of punishing quebec. DaimonAugustus has been ordered by god to collect 2 of every thing french and put it on his ark of ideology. the ark will sail over the money because those onboard would rather have their wallets bone dry than be swimming in canadian cash.

Frankly, we'd be better off without federal transfers, which keep us into a state of gentle subjection. We give you money, so stop complaining. I happen to prefer freedom. One of the many reasons I want Québec's independance.

As Quebec is part of Canada, it would appear that the article-writer supports the idea that English should be the common language for the entire country. The fact that some people in Quebec have refused, or neglected, to learn the language (and that some families have done so for generations) is shameful.

Yet no law has ever been written in the country to force the assimilation of Francophones. Canada has allowed Francophone institutions to exists for hundreds of years. In turn, restrictive language laws have been passed in Quebec, and xenophobes can now openly demand a "be like us, or get out" attitude towards immigrants.

Again, Canada is a federation. It has two official languages and provinces are free to choose either of both of these languages as officials. That's written in the Constitution, my friend, and it was the condition for Québec to join the federation. Now, I can understand, read, write and speak both of Canada's official languages. Do you ?

You say that Canada has allowed Francophone institutions to exist for hundreds of years. First, the Canadian Federation would have to have existed for at least 200 years to have done that for "hundreds" of years. Unfortunately, it's 140 years old. Second, if, by "Canada" you mean the british colonies between the conquest (1760) and the BNA Act (1867), then you are wrong.

The Royal Proclamation of 1763 that created the Province of Québec banned french from all colonial institutions, prohibited the colony's catholics (which were all french at the time) from having a position in the colonial administration or in the government, banned all french laws and abolished the french lords' rights as well as the catholic church's rights.

Two british governors tried to enforce the Royal Proclamation, but failed. It is because of the resistance of the canadian population (all french at the time), and because the brits feared that the canadians would side up with the Americans that the Québec Bill of 1774 re-enacted french civil laws, allowed catholics in the administration and government of the colony, and recognized the lords' and the catholic church's rights. It did not, however, re-establish french as an official language.

The Constitutionnal Bill of 1791, following the demands of the Loyalists, divided the Province of Québec in two : Upper Canada (Ontario) was to be a solely english colony, while Lower Canada (Québec) was to be a billingual colony, even though a huge majority was french-speaking.

After the 1837 rebellion, the Union Bill of 1840 re-united Upper and Lower Canada. Even though french Lower Canada was more populated than Upper Canada, Upper Canada obtained an equal number of seats in the Legislative Assembly. French was also banned as an official language.

In the 1850s, the english population of Upper Canada became larger than that of french Lower Canada. Upper Canada's elected officials therefore began campaining for a proportionnal representation in the Legislative Assembly rather than an equal one. In other words, justice in democracy applies only to english people. Remember than french was still banned.

BNA Act of 1867. Macdonald wanted an english-only centralised legislation. Cartier pushed for a billingual federation and a right for provinces to make their own linguistic laws. He obtained it. However, french was abolished in New Brunswick (1871), Manitoba (1890) and Ontario (1912) early in the history of the federation. Québec was officially billingual until 1977. Since then, all of a sudden, we've become the bad guys. Riiight. After all the efforts made to ban french, we wanted to make our language the only official language of ONE province, our own, the one where we are the huge majority and where yet, we couldn't at the time live in our own language, and we get told that we are racists ? Already told you, justice applies only to english people.

So if we sum up, since the conquest (in 247 years), french has been banned over the country in general for a total of 55 years, and accepted as one of two official languages for 189 years. In Québec only however, it has been banned for 55 years, accepted as one of two official languages for 159 years and has been the only official language for 33 years. In Ontario, now, land of the tolerant and of the saintly, french has been banned for a total of 199 years and accepted as one of two official languages for a total of 45 years (and those 45 years are between 1867 and 1912 remember).

And you dare say we've always been accepted and our institutions tolerated ? You may forget what efforts the british and then canadian governments have made to make us disappear. But we don't.
 
Again, Canada is a federation. It has two official languages and provinces are free to choose either of both of these languages as officials. That's written in the Constitution, my friend, and it was the condition for Québec to join the federation. Now, I can understand, read, write and speak both of Canada's official languages. Do you ?

Yeah, I know the history. You took the bait, though; so it was entertaining for me. To note, had the conquest you so despise been total, we would not been having this debate, would we? A simple fact, but one that is particularly tough to digest on the seperatist mind-set. Regardless, Quebec is not a country.



Imagine that, you write, read and speak English, but have not been assimilated by the evil ROC. So much for that fear!
 
Daimon Augustus, here's what I think of what you're blabbering on and on about: who the f. cares, and why on earth are you using Urban Toronto for the sole purpose of advancing your cause. Even if there's a certain validity and critical mass of support "out there", you're just being a pill of a pompous arse of a troll here.

And I hate to say it, but most Quebecois probably rank in a sort of "indifferent middle", too, even if they vote PQ/BQ/Oui. Especially by your message-board behaviour, you're barely any more representative of the reality of separatism/nationhood than the Free Dominion gang is of the reality of Canadian conservatism...
 
/Sigh,

I really don't feel like replying to this guy anymore. In the end he's just a big fool.

Get this through your head DA. Immigration laws are part Federal part provincial and federal has paramountcy over the subject. Duel citizenship would be in violation of the charter, therefore federal regulations have paramountcy over any bad rules Quebec would ever instate.

Likewise I can read English, French, Japanese and some Chinese thank you very much.

Really, the rest of English Canada is tired of this whole sovereignty thing. If Quebec wants to separate it will. Yes, Quebec does eat up money, not with social services but having provincial politics affect the federal level and all the headaches that come with it.

Just get it through that pin-head of yours, if Quebec separates there will be severe consequences. That is what most Quebecers are starting to see. That is why referendums on sovereignty are not as talked about or as important as before.

Right now even we in Ontario know that Alberta is pretty much carrying the economic weight of the country, Ontario is a distant but respectable second.

Your continued romanticism on the subject is devoid of the harsh realities and consequences of your desired actions on Quebec separation.
 
My proposal, and I say this as the Toronto-raised product of a looonnnggg line of Quebecois who almost all had the sense to get out, is the following: if Quebec wants to separate, it should go ahead. But with the understanding that separation means separation: no Canadian dollar, no military protection, no Canadian passports, no participation in Canadian monetary or economic policy, and most importantly NO TRANSFER PAYMENTS.

After the economy collapsed and Quebec desperately asked to be readmitted to the federation we could let it back in, but under new and much more favourable terms that will end its practice of being a massive economic drain on the country, and a huge obstacle to virtually any meaningful federal policy.

It's like the US on international environmental regulation--if one party effectively has veto power over agreements with enormous consequences for a much larger group of people, does it make sense to bend over backwards to accommodate that party, thus potentially eviscerating the point of what you were doing in the first place? Or does it make more sense to cut it out of the process completely?
 

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