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Roads: Gardiner Expressway

I get your point keithz, but I understand the reasoning behind the Gardiner's fall

1. You may not feel this way but its the "ugly", the "barrier" and the "ugly barrier" factor. This may be a stupid annalogy, but it would be like if you had to go through Regent Park to get to Rosedale. If that were true Rosedale wouldn't be "Rosedale". When I'm downtown, I sometimes consider going to the waterfront, but there is a voice in my head that says Ugh... I'll have to go under the Gardiner...

2. As you pointed out before, the city will make money from its demolition by increased tax revenue from more attractive properties after the Gardiner is gone. You seemed to make this out as a bad thing and the Millar will personally benefit, when it's not! City Hall is already cash-starved. Maybe they could extend the subway or even lower property taxes?

3. We talk about all the waste that goes on at City Hall: Unions, etc. But do you want to know one of the greatest money pits in the city? The Gardiner! $12 million in maintenace every year. This thing will pay for itself in 30 years. This is a long term investment. And that $12 million figure will just keep climbing the longer we wait and the expressway ages.

4. This section of the Gardiner is underused anyhow. Only 14% of traffic continue to the DVP or vice-versa.

5. Some may say that driving will be hell, but if you look at Lake Shore Boul. east of the highway, (an example of what may happen) traffic moves efficiently. The road is pleasant and treelined. (But the steetscape could be much better - this may happen as the land value grows and the portlands de-industrialize.) This is also a great way to use the carrot-stick approch in terms of Public Transit.

Carrot: Transit City, More GO
Stick: Less Gardiner

Well there's my rant for today. You can wake up now.
 
And one more,

6. Lake Shore Boulevard is pretty much an open canvas at this point.
Could you imagine what it could become? It could be very well a Champs-Elysee of Toronto! Cafes, Restaurants, Shops, Apartments! The grandness of University Avenue, with the feel of Bloor.

Oh wait, the Gardiner's still there...
 
Little Congestion,I dont think you drive.
I drive frequently, but not that day. But I did look at the traffic cams on the 401 around 2ish, 7 hours after it started. The only congestion that was apparent was westbound 401, only from Warden to 404, and Eastbound only from Islington to 400. Everything else looked clear. DVP and 427 were fine. Gardiner was fine. I'm sure York Mills and Steeles was a mess, but the impacts seem quite localised, all things considered.

What did you observe around the city?
 
1. You may not feel this way but its the "ugly", the "barrier" and the "ugly barrier" factor. This may be a stupid annalogy, but it would be like if you had to go through Regent Park to get to Rosedale. If that were true Rosedale wouldn't be "Rosedale". When I'm downtown, I sometimes consider going to the waterfront, but there is a voice in my head that says Ugh... I'll have to go under the Gardiner...

There are medicines available for that voice in your head. :D

2. As you pointed out before, the city will make money from its demolition by increased tax revenue from more attractive properties after the Gardiner is gone. You seemed to make this out as a bad thing and the Millar will personally benefit, when it's not! City Hall is already cash-starved. Maybe they could extend the subway or even lower property taxes?


The only way for it to be revenue positive is for the majority of new development to be non residential.

3. We talk about all the waste that goes on at City Hall: Unions, etc. But do you want to know one of the greatest money pits in the city? The Gardiner! $12 million in maintenace every year. This thing will pay for itself in 30 years. This is a long term investment. And that $12 million figure will just keep climbing the longer we wait and the expressway ages.

In a 8 billion dollar budget, 12 million is not a large expense. It is probably equivalent to what the TPL spends on bookmarks. Maintenance requirements are not exclusive to the Gardiner. I doubt that the per person mile cost of maintenance strays far from average.

4. This section of the Gardiner is underused anyhow. Only 14% of traffic continue to the DVP or vice-versa.

While Toronto still has less jobs today than a generation ago, there is a possibility that one day things might change and increase the need for the Gardiner.

5. Some may say that driving will be hell, but if you look at Lake Shore Boul. east of the highway, (an example of what may happen) traffic moves efficiently. The road is pleasant and treelined. (But the steetscape could be much better - this may happen as the land value grows and the portlands de-industrialize.) This is also a great way to use the carrot-stick approch in terms of Public Transit.

Missing from the current traffic projections is the fact that underutilized roads provide a tremendous means for relief when accidents happen in the area. Traffic plans that rely on high utilization rates usually fail miserably once accidents occur.
 
Visually the condos block out more of a lake view than the highway does.
From where? Downtown? Bremner and York? There's really no reason to be able to see the water from there. There's not a city in the world that doesn't extend right to the water body it's on. Cities like Singapore and Chicago have skyscrapers right up to the water just like Toronto. European cities are the same except they're shorter buildings, but a 3 storey building blocks the "view" just as much as a 30 storey building.
 
There are medicines available for that voice in your head. :D

You mean the voices that told me to blow up Downview? :p

The only way for it to be revenue positive is for the majority of new development to be non residential.

A lot of it will be. But you do need that base of residential living for the backbone of the community.

In a 8 billion dollar budget, 12 million is not a large expense. It is probably equivalent to what the TPL spends on bookmarks. Maintenance requirements are not exclusive to the Gardiner. I doubt that the per person mile cost of maintenance strays far from average.

I didn't realize that you had $12 million that you would like to personally donate to the city for Gardiner maintenance? That would be swell :rolleyes: .

While Toronto still has less jobs today than a generation ago, there is a possibility that one day things might change and increase the need for the Gardiner.

About jobs: there is a reason why they are building 3 new office towers downtown, and it isn't because we're loosing jobs!
And I hate this whole NEED a highway thing. Rather than making TO more car centric, lets go in the other direction so that TO won't need highways (for commuting, at least) ever again!
 
From where? Downtown? Bremner and York? There's really no reason to be able to see the water from there. There's not a city in the world that doesn't extend right to the water body it's on. Cities like Singapore and Chicago have skyscrapers right up to the water just like Toronto. European cities are the same except they're shorter buildings, but a 3 storey building blocks the "view" just as much as a 30 storey building.

The problem with high-rise condos, and anything else high rise, is that when they are in packs (like the downtown core), they tend to block out the sun and ruin views. How many condo dwellers here look out their windows to neighboring condos? I'd bet the majority do. The low-rise condo's don't do nothing for sightlines outside your window but they do let more sun in.

Also, I don't think it's so much the view to the water but the other way around. It's our skyline from the water that is compromised.
 
...the city will make money from its demolition by increased tax revenue from more attractive properties after the Gardiner is gone.

Are they eliminating the Lakeshore too? The gardener, for the most part, sits on top of the Lakeshore. If they tear it down, are they planning on building on top of the lakeshore? Where would this extra revenue come from?
 
^The sunlight argument is a fair one but it's an argument against high rises in general, not specifically near the waterfront. The waterfront itself is never shaded from high rises because they're all north of the waterfront.

High rises on Queen's Quay and the railway lands aren't a barrier to the view of the skyline, they're part of the skyline. They're no more a barrier to the financial district skyline than the financial district is a barrier to the Queen's Quay skyline. It just means the skyline is that much bigger and more impressive.
 
^^ The revenue that I was referring to was the fact that the city will earn more money from property taxes. Land by the east Gardiner will suddenly we worth a hell of a lot more when the expressway's gone. Think about it: That land has the potencial to be very expensive; it's by the water and very close to downtown. (I see it as the equivalent as if we had a parking lot at the corner of King and Bay...)

And Lake Shore isn't the problem. Streets don't decrease value of homes.
 
I know. If only there we some sort of... I don't know... train that could go underneath all of that traffic on Bloor. Ha! who am I kidding, that's something out of a science-fiction novel!

Been there, done that. As bad as the traffic is, I can still drive to work in 20-25 minutes; whereas, the walk, subway ride and the walk take 45 minutes. Sure enough, on a day like today, the walk would be fine, but in January? Or with the rain we've had this summer?

Nah, I did my fair share of TTCing and cycling 25 years ago, then I got a real job and bought a car.
 
And one more,

6. Lake Shore Boulevard is pretty much an open canvas at this point.
Could you imagine what it could become? It could be very well a Champs-Elysee of Toronto! Cafes, Restaurants, Shops, Apartments! The grandness of University Avenue, with the feel of Bloor.

Oh wait, the Gardiner's still there...

7. The railway tracks and their ugly, 75 year old rusting, iron bridges are far more of an impediment (visually or otherwise) than the Gardiner.

Whenever I walk to the ferry docks from Union station, it isn't the Gardiner that blocks my view............
 
From where? Downtown? Bremner and York? There's really no reason to be able to see the water from there. There's not a city in the world that doesn't extend right to the water body it's on. Cities like Singapore and Chicago have skyscrapers right up to the water just like Toronto. European cities are the same except they're shorter buildings, but a 3 storey building blocks the "view" just as much as a 30 storey building.

I just came back from Chicago. They have a stunning waterfront in the downtown core, but they also have an 8-lane roadway like our Lakeshore that heads north from the core. They also have many one-way streets downtown and they have built their skyscrapers (like the Aeon Tower) on top of multi-layers of roads and parking - something that this city never even thought of. Their subway network fans in all directions, including express lines out of the core.
We can't do this Chicago comparison thing because we don't have their money. Look at the state of the parks we have now. I was in Balfour Park on Thursday and was horrified at the mess it has become in just the past couple months (due largely to the wet summer we've had). That park was beautiful 25 years ago when the city actually maintained it. Sunnyside is covered in goose shit and the water is disgusting. I saw people swimming off their boats in Chicago's harbor - something you wouldn'd dare do around here.
 
^^ The revenue that I was referring to was the fact that the city will earn more money from property taxes. Land by the east Gardiner will suddenly we worth a hell of a lot more when the expressway's gone. Think about it: That land has the potencial to be very expensive; it's by the water and very close to downtown. (I see it as the equivalent as if we had a parking lot at the corner of King and Bay...)

And Lake Shore isn't the problem. Streets don't decrease value of homes.

That is making the assumption that taking down the Gardiner doesn't totally destroy any ability to get around by car (or delivery van or truck!) and then property values crash. Do you not see cars in the underground garages of these buildings? Friends that I know who live on Queens Quay (or Tip Top) have cars - very nice cars. Make things much worse to get around and watch many, many people move to where they can get around.
It sounds to me like some people want to live in a small town where everyone knows everyone else's name and where you can leave your bicycle parked out front while you go to the butcher shop.
That is not how a city of 5 million functions. No amount of dreaming about a utopian paradise where everyone skateboards to work is going to become reality.
We may not be in a position to build MORE expressways, but we should be maintaining (and I dare say expanding) what we have.
Toronto is not getting smaller and cars are not going away. EVER.
 
Been there, done that. As bad as the traffic is, I can still drive to work in 20-25 minutes; whereas, the walk, subway ride and the walk take 45 minutes. Sure enough, on a day like today, the walk would be fine, but in January? Or with the rain we've had this summer?

Nah, I did my fair share of TTCing and cycling 25 years ago, then I got a real job and bought a car.

Dichotomy, I can tell we're of different generations.
The friends I have now, don't own cars (and don't even live downtown). They walk, bike, taxi, but mostly TTC everywhere. None of them have any desire to buy a car, not because they can't afford it, or because they "don't have a real job", but because they choose to. And because - as you point out on a regular basis - driving is hell.

As for the cold: there's nothing like freezing your ass off waiting for the car to heat in your driveway! Or running through the rain, because you could only find a space a mile away.
 

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