Transit City Plan

BurlOak said:

I forgot to add, if Stintz thought it was an improved plan, why did she not bring it to Council.

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It could not win the vote.

Big Daddy said:

Eglinton needs a subway long before Sheppard. Sheppard can wait.

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In theory I agree with you. Only problem is Sheppard is the one that has an unfinished subway.

I feel a lot of this is residual sour grapes that Sheppard got built before Eglinton (and the real reason people want to convert Sheppard to LRT, even though it's not fiscally responsible to do so).

just a general question due to curiousity:

Buryiing the eglinton line and using LRT vehicles is supposed to take up most of the 8.4B in funding from Ontario...in that same price you can get Eglinton LRT with eastern unburied, finch LRT and sheppard LRT.

I was curious to know in a general sense (and i think the special meeting touched on this at some point) would there have been (significant) savings if eglinton could have been buried completed while using regular subway rolling stock? My understanding is that LRTs cost more than regular subway trains for a number of reasons, and I was just curious to know about this.

My understanding there would be no savings at least in the present., The stations would be large for one so the extra constructions costs and labour. I went to an open house design for Keele and the station was really small. I was told its a box about the the size of the LRT which is why they could not add another entrance that i enquired about and felt should be there. they said they would need to build a foundation and then the stairs, etc. And this was just to add another entrance never mind you would need a way bigger box for the subway cars and platform

Also, the ink has dried on the blueprints, design, orders, etc. Because the trains only get power from overhead wires, the tunnels need to be larger to accommodate them.

If all options were on the table, an Eglinton subway using metro trains would probably come to $7 billion, while using light rail vehicles comes to $8 billion.

Here I am trying to compile a list of major trip generators along the proposed Eglinton line, and Sheppard subway extension. Trip generators that are accessible by a short bus or subway ride are denoted by (*):

Scarborough Centre - Scarborough Town Centre, Scarborough Civic Centre, Government of Canada, Telus, TD Waterhouse, RBC, Toyota Canada (*), Centennial College (*), CTV (*)
Kennedy/Sheppard - Agincourt Centre, Reuters (1km walk), Delta hotel (1km walk)
Victoria Park/Sheppard & Consumers Road - Shoppers Drug Mart, Direct Energy, Hallmark Cards, Enbridge, Rogers, Universal Studios, World Wrestling Entertainment, Eastern Construction, Securitas, Unisys, Days Inn, Radisson, many others
Don Mills/Sheppard: Fairview Mall, Seneca College (*), National Post (*), Realtor (*), Thales (*), a number of other employers around York Mills/Don Mills
Leslie/Sheppard: North York General Hospital, Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine
Bayview/Sheppard: Bayview Village
Yonge/Sheppard: Teachers Pension Plan, Invesco Trimark, Franklin Templeton, Nestle, RBC, Toronto District School Board, Cadbury, Toronto Centre for the Arts
Bathurst/Sheppard: Prosserman Jewish Community Centre (*)
Downsview: Downsview Airport (*), Downsview Park (*), York University (*), Yorkdale Mall (*)

Victoria Park/Eglinton: Eglinton Square
Wynford Drive/Don Mills & Eglinton: Celestica, Ontario Science Centre, Home Depot, McDonald's Canada, Bell, Shops at Don Mills (*)
Leslie/Eglinton: Wrigley Canada (*), Four Seasons Hotels (*)
Bayview/Eglinton: Sunnybrook Hospital (*), CNIB (*), Glendon College (*), Holland Bloorview Kids Rehabilitation Hospital (*), Toronto Rehabilitation Institute (*), and CAMH (*)
Yonge/Eglinton: RioCan, Canadian Tire, TVO, Investors Group, Thomas Cook
Scarlett/Eglinton: West Park Healthcare Centre
Renforth/Eglinton (unfunded extension): Citigroup, SimplexGrinnell, Ricoh Canada, Pepsi Canada, General Mills Canada, HP, Canadian Standards Association, Investment Planning Counsel of Ontario, Nokia Siemens, Telus, Bell, Research in Motion, TD, Hasbro Canada, Accenture, Cotton Ginny Limited, Nissan, Carlson Marketing, Intuit, Canada Post (some of these require a bus ride), many others
Pearson Airport: Airport Terminal 1, Airport Terminal 3

I collected most of these from Google Maps/Google Street View, please suggest any errors/omissions

Also notice that there is very little employment on the Eglinton line between Yonge and the airport, so I think that the phase 2 unfunded extension (as heavy rail) to Pearson Airport is ESSENTIAL to achieving high ridership, connecting with the huge employment areas in Mississauga around the airport will increase ridership and relieve the busiest section of Hwy 401 (just east of the 409, and tends to be worse going west in AM and east in PM)

Tulse said:

In a word, amalgamation.

A multi-billion dollar line that is perceived to only serve downtown just isn't politically feasible, not without doing something for the suburbs first.

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I don't think amalgamation has anything to do with it. Downtown councilors (Jack Layton in particular) had no interest before amalgamation when a DRL was considered in the 80's.

What's that list supposed to prove?

I don't think local bank branches, local drug stores, or Hallmark Cards are the trip generators that you make them out to be. This is not justification for.

I also find the large number of (*) destinations funny. The biggest ones (the college and university campuses) aren't even on the subway and as you so convincingly put it, only a short bus ride away, where short means a transfer wait and 10-15 minutes or longer ride.

If anything that just proves subway is poorly suited for widely dispersed destinations in the suburbs.

I was thinking the same thing. I mean the jewish community centre - are you serious. And the Toronto Arts Centre is already on closer to the Yonge subway stop at Park Home. I could go on.

Paleo said:

What's that list supposed to prove?

I don't think local bank branches, local drug stores, or Hallmark Cards are the trip generators that you make them out to be. This is not justification for.

I also find the large number of (*) destinations funny. The biggest ones (the college and university campuses) aren't even on the subway and as you so convincingly put it, only a short bus ride away, where short means a transfer wait and 10-15 minutes or longer ride.

If anything that just proves subway is poorly suited for widely dispersed destinations in the suburbs.

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You would wait longer for those same trips if LRT (which is slower) is implemented. Both subway and LRT would still require you to wait 10-15min transfer ride to bus on these routes, so I don't understand how this proves that LRT is more suitable, just that subway gets you to the transfer point quicker than LRT.

I think what it means is depending on the situation, the limiter is going to be the low frequency of the connecting buses rather than the speed of LRT vs. subways.

AoD

AlvinofDiaspar said:

I think what it means is depending on the situation, the limiter is going to be the low frequency of the connecting buses rather than the speed of LRT vs. subways.

AoD

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ah alright, good point.

Why not have full signal priority during off peak times and limited priority during rush hour?

These are not local bank branches or drugstores, these are actual large office buildings. Hallmark Cards headquarters is at Victoria Park north of the 401. Shoppers Drug Mart headquarters is there as well.

Also I removed some of the destinations that are quite far from the subway like UTSC.

However I still strongly believe that subways are needed. There is a quite a lot of development that is right along the line already, and more will be built after the subway is built. Seriously you could have argued that the Bloor line was a boondoggle because it does not directly serve the Beaches, the old Greenwood racetrack, the Don Jail, Upper Canada College, Toronto General Hospital, Toronto Western Hospital, Toronto East General, the Junction, the CAMH, the Ontario Food Terminal etc. If anything Sheppard probably has more employment than Bloor-Danforth today, as there is little employment along BD outside downtown except a bit at Bloor and Islington.

Doing nothing and having it take 2 hours to drive across the city on 401 and no real alternative is not an option.

andrewpmk said:

Here I am trying to compile a list of major trip generators along the proposed Eglinton line, and Sheppard subway extension. Trip generators that are accessible by a short bus or subway ride are denoted by (*):

Scarborough Centre - Scarborough Town Centre, Scarborough Civic Centre, Government of Canada, Telus, TD Waterhouse, RBC, Toyota Canada (*), Centennial College (*), CTV (*)
Kennedy/Sheppard - Agincourt Centre, Reuters (1km walk), Delta hotel (1km walk)
Victoria Park/Sheppard & Consumers Road - Shoppers Drug Mart, Direct Energy, Hallmark Cards, Enbridge, Rogers, Universal Studios, World Wrestling Entertainment, Eastern Construction, Securitas, Unisys, Days Inn, Radisson, many others
Don Mills/Sheppard: Fairview Mall, Seneca College (*), National Post (*), Realtor (*), Thales (*), a number of other employers around York Mills/Don Mills
Leslie/Sheppard: North York General Hospital, Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine
Bayview/Sheppard: Bayview Village
Yonge/Sheppard: Teachers Pension Plan, Invesco Trimark, Franklin Templeton, Nestle, RBC, Toronto District School Board, Cadbury, Toronto Centre for the Arts
Bathurst/Sheppard: Prosserman Jewish Community Centre (*)
Downsview: Downsview Airport (*), Downsview Park (*), York University (*), Yorkdale Mall (*)

Victoria Park/Eglinton: Eglinton Square
Wynford Drive/Don Mills & Eglinton: Ontario Science Centre, Home Depot, McDonald's Canada, Bell, Shops at Don Mills (*)
Leslie/Eglinton: Wrigley Canada (*), Four Seasons Hotels (*)
Bayview/Eglinton: Sunnybrook Hospital (*), CNIB (*), Glendon College (*)
Yonge/Eglinton: RioCan, Canadian Tire, TVO, Investors Group, Thomas Cook
Scarlett/Eglinton: West Park Healthcare Centre
Renforth/Eglinton (unfunded extension): Citigroup, SimplexGrinnell, Ricoh Canada, Pepsi Canada, General Mills Canada, HP, Canadian Standards Association, Investment Planning Counsel of Ontario, Nokia Siemens, Telus, Bell, Research in Motion, TD, Hasbro Canada, Accenture, Cotton Ginny Limited, Nissan, Carlson Marketing, Intuit, Canada Post (some of these require a bus ride), many others
Pearson Airport: Airport Terminal 1, Airport Terminal 3

I collected most of these from Google Maps/Google Street View, please suggest any errors/omissions

Also notice that there is very little employment on the Eglinton line between Yonge and the airport, so I think that the phase 2 unfunded extension (as heavy rail) to Pearson Airport is ESSENTIAL to achieving high ridership, connecting with the huge employment areas in Mississauga around the airport will increase ridership and relieve the busiest section of Hwy 401 (just east of the 409, and tends to be worse going west in AM and east in PM)

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For Bayview/Eglinton or Laird/Eglinton, you should add Holland Bloorview Kids Rehabilitation Hospital (*) (my workplace), Toronto Rehabilitation Institute (*), and CAMH (*). How can you ignore Celestica, which is right at the corner of Don Mills and Eglinton?