Transit Fantasy Maps

44 North said:

Very true. Cosburn and Pape and Leslieville/south Riverdale were the most difficult to drop for this routing. The stretch of East York from Danforth to O'Connor seems like it has exceptionally high redevelopment potential. High density pockets, large tracts of ugly houses with no historic value...it seems perfect to run a subway line. But is that section worth ~$1.5-2bn, if there are less expensive opportunities that can be pursued?

The Laird/Millwood station was added - not because of local pop. density - but because of surface connections. There are several bus routes, and one could easily transfer to the Crosstown's Laird station.

The Thorncliffe Station is within (or a shade over) 500m to the centre of Thorncliffe Park neighbourhood. Because the neighbourhood itself is built-up (and the low-density manufacturing/brownfield around the station isn't) the location seems appropriate. The potential opportunity for development and a large bus hub presents itself.

The distance from Don Mills/Eglinton to Flemingdon Park is similar. It's in the station catchment periphery, +/- a few hundred metres.



Ha, in memento to Mike Tyson's visit perhaps. I actually had variations of King-Don, Don-King, River-King considered. Don seemed more apt for the sake of brevity.

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It's an interesting idea but I think ehlow really hit the nail on the head: are these cost saving measures worth pursuing when key transportation nodes in E-Y, Thorncliffe and Flemingdon Park are bypassed which may in turn impact ridership?

There may be numerous engineering challenges tunneling south of the Danforth but I reckon it is an infrastructural investment worth making.

Perhaps a more viable conundrum will be exactly where the DRL crosses the Don Valley. Pape is a popular option but Greenwood is also a possibility. I think there will ultimately be some sort of expanse across the Valley just not to the extent you have proposed.

Translude15 said:

It's an interesting idea but I think ehlow really hit the nail on the head: are these cost saving measures worth pursuing when key transportation nodes in E-Y, Thorncliffe and Flemingdon Park are bypassed which may in turn impact ridership?

There may be numerous engineering challenges tunneling south of the Danforth but I reckon it is an infrastructural investment worth making.

Perhaps a more viable conundrum will be exactly where the DRL crosses the Don Valley. Pape is a popular option but Greenwood is also a possibility. I think there will ultimately be some sort of expanse across the Valley just not to the extent you have proposed.

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For the most part I also reckon tunneling south of the Danforth is an infrastructure investment worth making. For the reasons that have been mentioned above, but also for offering surface connections south of Queen or the Port Lands. Even excluding the mammoth Port Lands there are large stretches around Eastern, Lake Shore Blvd East, and the Unilever lands which will probably be developed within the next ten years. The SE quadrant of Old Toronto is important enough to warrant underground heavy rail transit that's closer than B/D >2km away.

However, much of Ontario or the Feds don't think along those lines. They're okay with a 2040 DRL, and would prefer none at all. Even much of Toronto couldn't care less if Thorncliffe or Flemingdon were to not receive transit, or transit that's a little farther than it could be.

Generally I still think this plan has legs if it is to serve as an expedited, cost-effective, and 'cheapened' DRL. There's a railway corridor and perfectly-graded valley crossing sitting empty. I'd like to see it put to use instead of rusting away and turning into a forest. I'll probably work on the map a bit, and fix errors (viaduct should say 1.6km and surface as 3.5km). But the routing will probably remain as-is.

44 North said:

The transit issue to the Brickworks was solved, it's an empty bus.

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It's an empty bus because it's going the wrong direction, and seldom runs. I wouldn't advocate bending transit to get to the Brickworks. But I can't believe you'd run right past it above ground, and not put a stop somewhere.

44 North said:

And the distance between Broadview and Laird is 3.1km. This is less than the 3.5km proposed between Kennedy and Lawrence East for a Scarborough Subway. It's sizable, but unlike Scarborough there literally is nothing in between.

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If that subway actually gets built, I can't believe that there won't be a stop added at Eglinton and Danforth during the preliminary studies, as some have advocated.

Well it would definitely be a pleasant ride on a transit line elevated & at-grade through the Don Valley. Sunshine & trees!

(I've never taken the GO train through there)

nfitz said:

It's an empty bus because it's going the wrong direction, and seldom runs. I wouldn't advocate bending transit to get to the Brickworks. But I can't believe you'd run right past it above ground, and not put a stop somewhere.

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The bus is empty because there's virtually no demand. The ridership isn't there, period. The only time the parking lot is busy are some weekends during the summer. It's a small park, a few floors of private office space, and a costly showpiece of a Not-For-Profit. That's it. And there is zero potential for development because it's a floodplain...the city actually had to turn down condo proposals. There's no reason for a heavy rail subway station!

Even the idea of a weekend-use station is outta the question. It's on a narrow ridge, 80ft above the valley. Hydro/water/sewage hookups, 8-storey escalators and elevators...

nfitz said:

If that subway actually gets built, I can't believe that there won't be a stop added at Eglinton and Danforth during the preliminary studies, as some have advocated.

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Yes, well. The addition will increase trip time, costs, project scope, and create a longer route.

ehlow said:

Well it would definitely be a pleasant ride on a transit line elevated & at-grade through the Don Valley. Sunshine & trees!

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Agreed, the rider experience would be fantastic. The unobstructed view from the Half-Mile bridge would be particularly phenomenal. Trees, skyline, looking down on drivers stuck on the DVP as the rider glides overtop. The Riverdale section would probably have sound barriers, but I'm sure they could be made transparent.

44 North said:

The bus is empty because there's virtually no demand. The ridership isn't there, period. The only time the parking lot is busy are some weekends during the summer. It's a small park, a few floors of private office space, and a costly showpiece of a Not-For-Profit. That's it. And there is zero potential for development because it's a floodplain...the city actually had to turn down condo proposals. There's no reason for a heavy rail subway station!

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It's a massively huge area of park, stretching from near Gerrard Street to north of Eglinton. Putting a station to access it, where the line crosses it, seems like a great idea. Sure, it won't get much peak usage. But if it could done cheaply, it would enhance the city. I wouldn't suggest it, except that you've gone right through it.

44 North said:

It's on a narrow ridge, 80ft above the valley. Hydro/water/sewage hookups, 8-storey escalators and elevators...

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That would indeed be a challenge, but you don't go very far north of Bayview, where you've climbed that hill at the brickworks, and your actually looking down at the track. If you could build a surface platform on that hill, it could actually be quite cheap. And then you would need a structure to get down to Bayview - that might be the show-stopper because of accessibility issues. I wonder how much a funicular would cost. Sure, it's a fantasy, as is this entire line. But this IS the fantasy thread.

44 North said:

Yes, well. The addition will increase trip time, costs, project scope, and create a longer route.

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I don't think a station, 1.5 km from Kennedy and 2.5 km from Lawrence East (at Lawrence East and McCowan) is an unreasonable ask. That's still huge gaps between stations. And how does putting a station at Eglinton East and Danforth create a longer route? The plan for subway according to the various TTC and city diagrams for the last year or so is to go under Eglinton East to Danforth, up Danforth to McCowan, and then up McCowan to Sheppard. If you are thinking of another alignment, then surely it's going to create a longer route!

The Don-Town line.

M II A II R II K said:

The Don-Town line.

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I don't think anything will beat the Don King line.

nfitz said:

It's a massively huge area of park, stretching from near Gerrard Street to north of Eglinton. Putting a station to access it, where the line crosses it, seems like a great idea. Sure, it won't get much peak usage. But if it could done cheaply, it would enhance the city. I wouldn't suggest it, except that you've gone right through it.

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I know exactly where it is, and the entire valley corridor from Eglinton to the lake like the back of my hand...maybe I'm exaggerating
If it could be done cheaply, and maybe some private financing, air rights leasing (or I guess 'ground rights' because it's an inverted station on a ridge), or a donation by Weston or something...I guess. But the only way I see it done is a special one-unit shuttle car used once every 2h, off-peak. And a tail track for it sit idle.

And the valley is not "one park". I'd like it to be. But it's a corridor hacked and allocated to many uses: sewage, gas, highways, expressways, freight/commuter rail, storage, etc. Other than dirt paths and undesignated trails, the public realm and pedestrian connectivity of the valley is sorely lacking.

nfitz said:

I don't think a station, 1.5 km from Kennedy and 2.5 km from Lawrence East (at Lawrence East and McCowan) is an unreasonable ask. That's still huge gaps between stations. And how does putting a station at Eglinton East and Danforth create a longer route? The plan for subway according to the various TTC and city diagrams for the last year or so is to go under Eglinton East to Danforth, up Danforth to McCowan, and then up McCowan to Sheppard. If you are thinking of another alignment, then surely it's going to create a longer route!

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I agree a station at [STRIKE]Lawrence and McCowan[/STRIKE] Danforth Rd/Eglinton makes sense. But it was omitted from the voted plan for a reason: cost, and the appearance that a "Scarboro Subway" is somehow faster than elevated 'light' RT. But this is apples and oranges. There are no residents, and very little employment in the Don Valley.

44 North said:

I agree a station at Lawrence and McCowan makes sense. But it was omitted from the voted plan for a reason: cost, and the appearance that a "Scarboro Subway" is somehow faster than elevated 'light' RT.

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The plans have always shown 3 stations. Lawrence and McCowan; Scarborough Centre (on/near McCowan) and McCowan/Sheppard.

It's the Danforth/Eglinton station that I think you mean.

By the time it opens no one will remember Don King and then it won't be funny anymore.

Compilation of many past plans that never came to be:

http://levyrapidtransit.ca/category/blog/

Was inspired by a comment in the Downtown Relief Line thread.

Basic idea here is making the Sheppard East LRT turn south on Don Mills towards Eglinton and interlining it with Eglinton. Effectively creating two branches. The DRL is brought up to Eglinton allowing Sheppard riders to transfer directly to the DRL.

Benefits:

- Increased frequency through central portion of Eglinton which (I personally believe) will exceed ridership expectations.
- de facto elimination of all transfer problems. Sheppard riders can choose to transfer to Sheppard subway, DRL at Don Mills-Eglinton, or continue along Eglinton to Yonge.
- Actual relief to the Yonge Line. Regular DRL routing relieves Bloor-Yonge and downtown streetcars same as before, but now with this Sheppard-Eglinton interlining, all of Scarborough North will transfer on to the DRL instead of the Yonge line.


Also while doing this map I realized how fricken many stations there are on Sheppard East. What the hell? We don't need half those stations. Ionview and Ferrand can also be eliminated from Eglinton.

^ well that's what comes with LRT. On LRT, you can get off infront of your house. I like the map, but it begs the question why not bring the DRL to don mills. What program did you use to make this?

WislaHD said:

Also while doing this map I realized how fricken many stations there are on Sheppard East. What the hell? We don't need half those stations. Ionview and Ferrand can also be eliminated from Eglinton.

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Because like along the 512, everyone wants to have a stop within 2 minutes walk, pretending it is for the seniors and handicapped. So a potentially rapid line which could work great end up stopping every 90 seconds and taking forever for anyone to get anywhere.